Page 28 | To ask why people are so against giving up meat?

NewCracker · 2023-07-04T20:12:42+00:00

Just that really, why are people so against giving up meat? Without a doubt we know it's better for the environment, we know it's better for our health, we know it's better for animal welfare and it's actually quite expensive. But still as soon as you mention to the greater public about cutting their meat consumption, they get defensive and almost offended. Would you ever consider giving it up, if you do consume it now? If not, why not? I'm expecting some hate, this is MN after all, but I am genuinely just curious. Not trying to rattle feathers.

Fernbreeze · 05/07/2023 13:49

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 05/07/2023 13:47

We have several herds doing conservation grazing around here. They are tiny herds that live on poor or very poor land.
Two miles the other way we have a feck off big McDonald's herd. They are based on very good and and their food comes from moderate to good land.
Most meat is not from conservation grazing.

if you have several herds doing conservation grazing that live on poor or very poor land. There not doing it right 😂

Sendouttheclowns · 05/07/2023 13:50

Superfood · 05/07/2023 13:34

How unusual. I'm Jewish and there aren't many vegetarians at all among my Jewish or Muslim friends. Which Jewish communities do your friends come from?

Decent meat/fish options might include chicken satay, skewers of prawns, chicken or beef with appropriate dips, prawn summer rolls, smoked salmon blinis or bagels, cod goujons with tartare sauce, little Italian beef and herb meatballs, high quality sausages or kosher viennas (not 'cocktail sausages'), prosciutto or Parma ham (not for the Jews and Muslims obviously), etc.

Why do you ask? Are you planning to make them?

Perhaps serve those options, versus a table of Quorn 'picnic eggs' or meat-substitute 'sausage rolls', and see which ones get eaten then. Be a bit more of a reasonable comparison than lovingly homemade vegetarian/vegan food versus disgusting processed junk

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I was looking for something simple that could be bought.

As I have a vegetarian kitchen I don't want to contaminate it cooking with meat products.

Which Jewish communities do your friends come from? I'm not answering that as it could be 'outing' for my Jewish friends.

It seems you haven't heard of this organisation?

https://www.jvs.org.uk/

or this

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/861ee752-c5ab-4c03-94ed-1fb7e8aab7e2

HadalyEve · 05/07/2023 13:51

Scrummage · 05/07/2023 13:39

@Fernbreeze those things absolutely are my concern. I object to the fantasy you’re presenting whereby most meat eaters are visiting organic farms that practice “conservation grazing” and most vegans are hoovering up soy and UPFs and mono crops.

The reality is that most of the meat we eat is factory farmed. I suspect a huge chunk of it is processed beyond all recognition too.

The idea of popping into a local organic farm for your grass fed chops is a total fantasy (at a population level scale) and not even what vegans are actually protesting against.

Far more of the plants we eat are monocropped and then highly processed compared to the meat we eat. I didn’t see @Fernbreeze posit that particular fantasy. Do you know that the U.K. organic food market is now worth £3bn the highest ever? So it’s not really a fantasy, it’s a growing reality applying to more and more consumers every year.

There is also a wide middle ground of conventional farming between factory/battery farming and organic/conservation/sustainable farming. In the U.K. and EU most types of factory/battery farming are actually illegal and not practised so your contention that most of the meat we eat is factory farmed would apply to say any US posters here where animal welfare laws are much less stringent, but not really to any U.K. or EU posters as our conventional farming in some cases would meet the requirements of organic farming in the US.

HadalyEve · 05/07/2023 13:52

Fernbreeze · 05/07/2023 13:49

if you have several herds doing conservation grazing that live on poor or very poor land. There not doing it right 😂

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I don’t think that poster knows what conservation grazing is.

MarkWithaC · 05/07/2023 13:54

speluncean · 05/07/2023 13:39

@MarkWithaC I apologise for seeming blunt. I'm autistic. It certainly was not my intention to be adversarial.

No worries!

Sceptre86 · 05/07/2023 13:54

I enjoy it. I cook vegetarian meals 3 days a week, one day a week is fish and the other 3 might well be based around chicken, lamb or beef.

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 05/07/2023 13:55

@Fernbreeze you need to look at your map and identify what land is classified as poor or very poor. Then you need to find out about controlled grazing on SSSI land.

Scrummage · 05/07/2023 13:57

@Fernbreeze how’s this for a compromise: we do away with factory farming at its current scale - so no more meat in supermarkets or fast food etc - but we keep eating animals that live on moorland or whatever?

I think you’d be surprised by how many vegans would be totally fine with a world that looked like that.

The truth is that sustainable farming and game make up such a small portion of our meat intake that’s it’s basically not worth talking about.

Leastsaidsoonestscrewed · 05/07/2023 13:57

One may as well ask why vegetarians continue to post preachy "you all really know it's morally and ethically the only valid choice, you horrific flesheaters " post and chractetise any disagreement as 'hate'.

Fernbreeze · 05/07/2023 13:59

HadalyEve · 05/07/2023 13:52

I don’t think that poster knows what conservation grazing is.

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Exactly you would think if they are going to argue against you, they would do some basic research first and have a glimmer of understanding of the subject.

loislovesstewie · 05/07/2023 14:03

Or, how about we campaign for higher welfare for farmed animals and vegans leave those of us who like meat,dairy, eggs and honey alone?

Superfood · 05/07/2023 14:04

Sendouttheclowns · 05/07/2023 13:50

I was looking for something simple that could be bought.

As I have a vegetarian kitchen I don't want to contaminate it cooking with meat products.

Which Jewish communities do your friends come from? I'm not answering that as it could be 'outing' for my Jewish friends.

It seems you haven't heard of this organisation?

https://www.jvs.org.uk/

or this

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/861ee752-c5ab-4c03-94ed-1fb7e8aab7e2

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I was looking for something simple that could be bought.

Every single thing i listed can be bought ready made except maybe the cod goujons.

As I have a vegetarian kitchen I don't want to contaminate it cooking with meat products.

But you're willing to buy horrendous, low quality, unethical, processed meat products like pork pies? Not really very consistent, is it?

Why are you pretending that it's impossible to serve decent food with meat and fish? Why not just be honest and say you only make vegetarian food? I don't expect my vegetarian friends to make me meat, or my Hindu friends to serve me beef. It would be a lot more honest and decent than buying disgusting processed rubbish and then going "oh gosh who'd have thought no one wants to eat this horrible crap? They must all want to be vegetarians really, tee hee".

Leastsaidsoonestscrewed · 05/07/2023 14:05

loislovesstewie · 05/07/2023 14:03

Or, how about we campaign for higher welfare for farmed animals and vegans leave those of us who like meat,dairy, eggs and honey alone?

This. Probably won't happen though, they are utterly convinced its the only way

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 05/07/2023 14:07

Fernbreeze · 05/07/2023 13:33

Nice pictures you cropped from the guardian, but you seem to extract this part of the report.

"The farm is run under a bespoke environmental management plan in conjunction with Natural England. All the cattle graze the marshes during the summer season then during the winter months, when the grass is dormant the cattle are bought back to the yard when the finishing/fattening cattle are housed in covered sheds. For clarification the length of grazing season is weather dependent, once the grass stops growing the cattle need to be yarded and fed a forage based ration in accordance with animal welfare and best practice.”

Funny that isn't it, you went for a shock factor image from the internet with no narrative.

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The UK one was from the guardian, the US one was just an aerial photo I found but, that doesn't detract from the wider point does it? And there's plenty of narrative if you read through the posts.

But to summarise;

Industrial scale animal agriculture is always worse for the environment than industrial scale arable farming, partly due to idustrial scale animal agriculture requiring industrial scale arable agriculture to support it.

Industrial scale arable farming is generally worse for the environment than low intensity animal agriculture, but low intensity animal agriculture cannot be the default when the majority of the population consume meat most days.

So encouraging people to eat a plant-based or plant-rich diet, supplemented by very occasional low intensity, high welfare meat would be the best solution for the environment (and for health).

Sendouttheclowns · 05/07/2023 14:08

@Superfood Every single thing i listed can be bought ready made except maybe the cod goujons.

That's good to know, thanks for that. 🙂

Popworld · 05/07/2023 14:08

I like the way it tastes
And I dont want to stop eating meat

Makemyday99 · 05/07/2023 14:10

Popworld · 05/07/2023 14:08

I like the way it tastes
And I dont want to stop eating meat

And that is a good enough reason in my opinion

Popworld · 05/07/2023 14:10

Makemyday99 · 05/07/2023 14:10

And that is a good enough reason in my opinion

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Exactly straight to the point

Fernbreeze · 05/07/2023 14:11

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 05/07/2023 14:07

The UK one was from the guardian, the US one was just an aerial photo I found but, that doesn't detract from the wider point does it? And there's plenty of narrative if you read through the posts.

But to summarise;

Industrial scale animal agriculture is always worse for the environment than industrial scale arable farming, partly due to idustrial scale animal agriculture requiring industrial scale arable agriculture to support it.

Industrial scale arable farming is generally worse for the environment than low intensity animal agriculture, but low intensity animal agriculture cannot be the default when the majority of the population consume meat most days.

So encouraging people to eat a plant-based or plant-rich diet, supplemented by very occasional low intensity, high welfare meat would be the best solution for the environment (and for health).

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I have no objection to your post which is very balanced to be honest.

But unfortunately is does not align with many of the militant vegetarians and vegans that would like a ban on all meat altogether. I am happy to find common ground, with a balanced and educated point of view.

HadalyEve · 05/07/2023 14:13

Scrummage · 05/07/2023 13:57

@Fernbreeze how’s this for a compromise: we do away with factory farming at its current scale - so no more meat in supermarkets or fast food etc - but we keep eating animals that live on moorland or whatever?

I think you’d be surprised by how many vegans would be totally fine with a world that looked like that.

The truth is that sustainable farming and game make up such a small portion of our meat intake that’s it’s basically not worth talking about.

The truth is that sustainable farming and game make up such a small portion of our meat intake that’s it’s basically not worth talking about.

No, that’s not the truth in regards to sustainable farming. The farming industry, in England and the UK is comprised of a large number of relatively small businesses. They are not large enough to qualify as factory farms. The majority of farms in the U.K. practice some level of sustainable farming. Sustainable farming is always undergoing continuous improvement and farmers get government incentive payments to implement improvements.

https://www.ceh.ac.uk/our-science/science-challenges/sustainable-agriculture

https://defrafarming.blog.gov.uk/2023/03/08/the-science-behind-the-sustainable-farming-incentive/

The science behind the Sustainable Farming Incentive - Farming

Updates from Defra's Farming and Countryside Programme

https://defrafarming.blog.gov.uk/2023/03/08/the-science-behind-the-sustainable-farming-incentive/

Popworld · 05/07/2023 14:15

I havent read the full thread. But vegans tend to forget to mention how many bees are killed in producing alot of their food.

Sl

Popworld · 05/07/2023 14:15

Not sure what the si is all about

HadalyEve · 05/07/2023 14:16

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 05/07/2023 14:07

The UK one was from the guardian, the US one was just an aerial photo I found but, that doesn't detract from the wider point does it? And there's plenty of narrative if you read through the posts.

But to summarise;

Industrial scale animal agriculture is always worse for the environment than industrial scale arable farming, partly due to idustrial scale animal agriculture requiring industrial scale arable agriculture to support it.

Industrial scale arable farming is generally worse for the environment than low intensity animal agriculture, but low intensity animal agriculture cannot be the default when the majority of the population consume meat most days.

So encouraging people to eat a plant-based or plant-rich diet, supplemented by very occasional low intensity, high welfare meat would be the best solution for the environment (and for health).

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That’s a fair summary.

jcyclops · 05/07/2023 14:19

There are lot of people saying they eat meat because it tastes great. Where are the replies saying "I am vegan because it tastes great"?

Fernbreeze · 05/07/2023 14:20

jcyclops · 05/07/2023 14:19

There are lot of people saying they eat meat because it tastes great. Where are the replies saying "I am vegan because it tastes great"?

Stood outside Mc Donald's protesting 😂