Page 22 | Not to send my children to private school even though I can afford it

AdamRyan · 2023-07-01T20:38:08+00:00

I believe in comprehensive education and think children should all be educated together, to improve social mobility and prevent a "brain drain" where less privileged children go to some schools, and more privileged go to others. Am I in the minority and being naive? YANBU - comprehensive schools are the way to go YABU - I'd send my children private if I could

Blossomtoes · 04/07/2023 18:06

This old person is paying a shedload of tax @JustanothermagicMonday1. Pensions, including the state pension, are subject to PAYE - which incidentally accounts for less than a quarter of revenue to the Treasury.

SunnyEgg · 04/07/2023 18:07

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 04/07/2023 18:01

“Unfortunately I think both NHS and education are being intentionally run down by the Tories so as to "encourage" people to go private and shrink the state. To me that means widening social inequality and causing severe problems for those who have no choice but to use public services.”

I don’t like the Tories either, but I do not think this statement is true.

We simply have a very ageing and unhealthy population now and the NHS was never founded to deal with that and we simply just tax PAYE mainly and that is not enough revenue. Companies not paying enough tax, wealthy old people not paying tax, people not on PAYE not paying full tax, part time workers, the list goes on and on.

We need wealth taxes and working every extra hour needs to actually pay and be worthwhile. That is just not the case anymore. And childcare is too expensive as well.

I have mused on the ageing population issue and whether it’s quite stark here because we are less likely to share our home with older generations but use care instead

Funding has gone up for the NHS but so has our age, plus health complexities

I know this is about schooling but it’s linked as you say

On corporations paying more tax I can’t help but feel we’ve blown it slightly. RoI has much lower taxation and has benefited from US multinationals since

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 04/07/2023 18:11

“This old person is paying a shedload of tax @JustanothermagicMonday1. Pensions, including the state pension, are subject to PAYE - which incidentally accounts for less than a quarter of revenue to the Treasury.”

I wasn’t talking about PAYE. I would like to see wealth taxes and the exemption on capital gains taxes on Main Residences abolished tomorrow. It is ridiculous that people can bank 1 million in some cases of housing profit tax free and under occupy homes etc because Council tax is too low. It should be based on value and size of houses and actual wealth and income combined, as it is in some countries. Our country is simply too small and in a housing crisis to let this carry on.

Mikimoto · 04/07/2023 18:19

Terryer · 04/07/2023 17:57

Perhaps when the private schools close down and all the pupils are state educated instead there will be a sad decline in the quality of rap music 😔

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You can't afford private schools?
We can't afford a Landrover Defender. Or a house with a berth on the Thames.
But that's not what we put our money into.

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 04/07/2023 18:23

”I have mused on the ageing population issue and whether it’s quite stark here because we are less likely to share our home with older generations but use care instead “

Health, education, demographics etc etc all interlinked. And the terrible behaviour of some kids these days is also contributing to very poor educational outcome for many. So it isn’t fair to disadvantage the elderly vulnerable population either.

I don’t know what the answer is. But I do know that VAT on private school fees is not some magic money tree that is going to change anything much for state education.

Blossomtoes · 04/07/2023 18:23

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 04/07/2023 18:11

“This old person is paying a shedload of tax @JustanothermagicMonday1. Pensions, including the state pension, are subject to PAYE - which incidentally accounts for less than a quarter of revenue to the Treasury.”

I wasn’t talking about PAYE. I would like to see wealth taxes and the exemption on capital gains taxes on Main Residences abolished tomorrow. It is ridiculous that people can bank 1 million in some cases of housing profit tax free and under occupy homes etc because Council tax is too low. It should be based on value and size of houses and actual wealth and income combined, as it is in some countries. Our country is simply too small and in a housing crisis to let this carry on.

You might like to see capital gains tax on main residences abolished but any political party proposing that would be committing electoral suicide. I’d settle for proper enforcement of corporation tax and abolition of personal allowances for inheritance tax - but the latter would also be electoral suicide.

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 04/07/2023 18:29

“You might like to see capital gains tax on main residences abolished but any political party proposing that would be committing electoral suicide. I’d settle for proper enforcement of corporation tax and abolition of personal allowances for inheritance tax - but the latter would also be electoral suicide.”

It should not be electoral suicide though. Main Residence should not be an investment or money maker in any shape or form - safe housing for all is essential. If you buy another house you roll your capital gains over etc. Paying a bit of CGT on main residence should not really be an issue if you are downsizing. It is actually better to pay on profit than having to pay large amounts via Stamp Duty upfront.
We actually need disincentives to make property an investment. Government have already started with the second homes/rental sector. Main residence is coming. They have no choice given demographics.
I really think the exemption on Capital Gains Tax on Main Residence is far more of an issue than VAT on school fees not being payable. It is a completely unfair exemption for most, especially the young.

Goldenbear · 04/07/2023 18:30

EffortlessDesmond · 04/07/2023 17:42

It may happen that under a Labour government that the VAT exemption is removed, but this is unlikely to bring in anything close to the £1.6bn being bruited about, because:

Once, the VAT exemption is removed, private schools will reclaim the VAT paid on outgoings like any other business, so the 20% figure is likely to be reduced to about 5% of receipts.

Two, the range of pupils leaving when their parents can't find the additional sums is estimated at between 5% (by the Labour Party) and 25% (the Independent Schools Council). If the latter is correct then any receipts will be negligible as the state will have those pupils added to state school rolls.

If forced into VAT registration, then a large proportion of any VAT paid for investment in buildings and facilities over a decade or so would be reclaimed by the schools, as they would be permitted to do. Quite a windfall for some schools.

And finally, as it is possible to pre-pay school fees ahead of the introduction of VAT, the exceptionally well-to-do would fund fees upfront -- saving themselves 20% VAT minus the interest paid (if they borrowed the money). If they had it tucked away in the school fee fund, they would forfeit only the interest income.

In other words, it's a bit of a red herring.

Yes but you are basing your sums on the ISC's figure which as I pointed out in previous posts, the consultants who researched that report, Baines Cutler - who provide financial advice to private schools, did not explain how they got to that figure. They assume that all these ex private school children will have to be accommodated in the state sector but ignore the falling birth rates will be higher than the total number of private educated pupils, this obviously means new schools will not have to be built to make up for this influx and it totally ignores a number of factors such as the schools themselves will probably remain competitive as they after all a business that will find ones to retain pupils, many parents send children to private school for reasons that are unrelated to fees so social status, networking abilities (perceived advantage)etc

Terryer · 04/07/2023 18:32

Goldenbear · 04/07/2023 18:30

Yes but you are basing your sums on the ISC's figure which as I pointed out in previous posts, the consultants who researched that report, Baines Cutler - who provide financial advice to private schools, did not explain how they got to that figure. They assume that all these ex private school children will have to be accommodated in the state sector but ignore the falling birth rates will be higher than the total number of private educated pupils, this obviously means new schools will not have to be built to make up for this influx and it totally ignores a number of factors such as the schools themselves will probably remain competitive as they after all a business that will find ones to retain pupils, many parents send children to private school for reasons that are unrelated to fees so social status, networking abilities (perceived advantage)etc

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What about being able to claim VAt back?

Our school has spent millions building new facilities in the last few years.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 04/07/2023 18:34

Presumably, once labour has actually formulated proper policy proposals on this issue, which independent schools they aim to impact and those they want to exempt etc and how they are going to achieve that, they will have to do some credible forecasting around the impact across the sector as a whole. I think that will likely demonstrate that this isn’t going to be much of an earner for them, but they’ll have to do that work.

Goldenbear · 04/07/2023 18:51

Barbadossunset · 04/07/2023 17:52

Goldenbear · Today 12:40
Ultimately, we can't afford to send our DC to private school so why should my DC not get as good opportunities as DC at private school?

You’ve posted 100s of posts on this and other threads about how awful private schools are with their eating disorders and unempathetic students who can’t compose rap music etc so presumably even if you could afford it you wouldn't send your children to private school.

I have not said anything about rap music specifically, it is another poster who has been very rude on this post and despite me listing several musical genres you have both honed in on this particular genre of music with, it has to be said, a belittling tone- why is that do you think? 100s? Not quite.

I am questioning the opportunities, the segregation that is acceptable to you and others on this thread, I am asking why a two tier system is justifiable, I don't literally want my DC to go to private school.

Goldenbear · 04/07/2023 19:14

yogasaurus · 04/07/2023 17:57

Even with all this taken in to account it would produce anet revenue boost that could fund the poorest children in society who have everything stacked against them by stint of birth what civilised country would not want that?

It’s not specifically going to the poorest though, is it? I won’t have a choice, but paying even more for other people’s children when I also pay tax for an education system I don’t use doesn’t fill me with joy, actually. Especially as it will just be frittered into the void, most likely.

Oh you mean a bit like the tax concessions that private schools receive from charitable status so the public purse misses out on that revenue and has even less to spend on funding state school education. Children in private school have 3x the amount spent on them than state school children, this is a combination of fees and the tax exemptions! We can all argue about fairness.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 04/07/2023 19:18

Goldenbear · 04/07/2023 19:14

Oh you mean a bit like the tax concessions that private schools receive from charitable status so the public purse misses out on that revenue and has even less to spend on funding state school education. Children in private school have 3x the amount spent on them than state school children, this is a combination of fees and the tax exemptions! We can all argue about fairness.

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The thing about charitable status is that all “profit” has to be deployed for the charitable purpose. Charities have to operate in quite a different way to other types of legal entity. You can’t really compare them.
if you don’t want them to be companies what sort of entity do you want them to be? Would you stop them being CICs or companies limited by guarantee too? Because they don’t have to be run for profit either.

yogasaurus · 04/07/2023 19:43

Goldenbear · 04/07/2023 19:14

Oh you mean a bit like the tax concessions that private schools receive from charitable status so the public purse misses out on that revenue and has even less to spend on funding state school education. Children in private school have 3x the amount spent on them than state school children, this is a combination of fees and the tax exemptions! We can all argue about fairness.

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So which would you prefer;

private schools continue but you claim VAT
private schools all close; as you’ve said, they are inherently unfair, and all those students flood back into the state sector, and there’s even less cash to go around

is that the fairness you allude to?

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 04/07/2023 19:49

“Presumably, once labour has actually formulated proper policy proposals on this issue, which independent schools they aim to impact and those they want to exempt etc and how they are going to achieve that, they will have to do some credible forecasting around the impact across the sector as a whole. I think that will likely demonstrate that this isn’t going to be much of an earner for them, but they’ll have to do that work.”

Of course they will have to do further fact finding and it will take some years to implement if they do go ahead with it. You will have to wait for at least another election to see it come to fruition, if at all.

However, as a principle health and education should not be taxed. It is better to tax assets and housing wealth. It is more productive to do that. There is a massive generational conflict coming and things will have to change with housing. It is far more urgent for equality in society than private schools and what the minority of people are doing there - that is just a distraction tactic.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lselondon/housing-taxation-across-europe-changing-for-the-better/ It is an issue across the whole of Europe.
Young people not having anywhere to live impacts on birth rate etc as well. Politicians know that. Sadly most do not want to implement what is best for society in the long run, but are mainly focussed on re-election and their own party’s success.

So someone saying they are going to give their child £200k for a house deposit vs paying for private school education is arguably doing less for equality than the person paying up for education.
Every day a lot of middle class people make exactly that choice - they choose giving their DCs cash vs private education. It isn’t the more “morale” choice, just a different choice. I am doing exactly that myself as my DCs are intelligent and we have good state schools - but I am not going to be disingenuous and pretend I am not doing that for a reason.

Blossomtoes · 04/07/2023 20:10

It should not be electoral suicide though. Main Residence should not be an investment or money maker in any shape or form

But it is and always will be when over 60% of the population are homeowners.

Goldenbear · 04/07/2023 20:27

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 04/07/2023 19:49

“Presumably, once labour has actually formulated proper policy proposals on this issue, which independent schools they aim to impact and those they want to exempt etc and how they are going to achieve that, they will have to do some credible forecasting around the impact across the sector as a whole. I think that will likely demonstrate that this isn’t going to be much of an earner for them, but they’ll have to do that work.”

Of course they will have to do further fact finding and it will take some years to implement if they do go ahead with it. You will have to wait for at least another election to see it come to fruition, if at all.

However, as a principle health and education should not be taxed. It is better to tax assets and housing wealth. It is more productive to do that. There is a massive generational conflict coming and things will have to change with housing. It is far more urgent for equality in society than private schools and what the minority of people are doing there - that is just a distraction tactic.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lselondon/housing-taxation-across-europe-changing-for-the-better/ It is an issue across the whole of Europe.
Young people not having anywhere to live impacts on birth rate etc as well. Politicians know that. Sadly most do not want to implement what is best for society in the long run, but are mainly focussed on re-election and their own party’s success.

So someone saying they are going to give their child £200k for a house deposit vs paying for private school education is arguably doing less for equality than the person paying up for education.
Every day a lot of middle class people make exactly that choice - they choose giving their DCs cash vs private education. It isn’t the more “morale” choice, just a different choice. I am doing exactly that myself as my DCs are intelligent and we have good state schools - but I am not going to be disingenuous and pretend I am not doing that for a reason.

Hardly a distraction technique, so you think the 7% of people that make up 39 % of the most influential jobs (Senior judges, Cabinet office, MPs...) Is not a concern?

Ultimately, education is the main driver of social mobility. It can't be dismissed as irrelevant as that is clearly inaccurate.

Barbadossunset · 04/07/2023 20:28

is that the fairness you allude to?

Yogasaurus I don’t think it’s so much about improving state schools as seeing privately educated children cut down to size.

Usernamehell · 04/07/2023 20:34

Goldenbear · 04/07/2023 17:25

So you are citing underfunding as the issue but on the other hand dismiss any policies that would help with the funding of state schools most deprived pupils.

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Please do elaborate where exactly I have dismissed a single policy that helps with funding state school pupils. If you re-read my posts, I give the state sector my full support and actively campaign for better funding and write to my MP. We as a society will benefit from children being educated well.

I myself am state educated and have got to where I am against adversity, most certainly not because of it. I was bullied in a horrific way to the extent where I nearly ended my life on multiple occasions as a teenager. Something pulled me back from the brink and I managed to get my head down and make something of myself.

I continue to spend my life caring for others who are struggling for one reason for another. I only practice in the NHS, not privately, I go back home and volunteer in rural medical camps regularly, we sponsor children's education back home too. I lead by example and whilst my children may still be young, they are very much aware of how fortunate they are

I will not sacrifice my own children's education for idealistic morals and make no apologies for this.

Your viewpoint is impossible to understand anyway. You join a thread to apply ridiculous stereotypes to all children being privately educated and state how much better off your children are in the state sector...then move onto complaining that it isn't fair that your children don't have access to that sector and we should somehow level the playing field to the lowest common denominator when it comes to education...and this target just continues to move with no clear aim to what you stand for (other than complaining that others are wealthier than you)

Goldenbear · 04/07/2023 20:39

AgathaSpencerGregson · 04/07/2023 19:18

The thing about charitable status is that all “profit” has to be deployed for the charitable purpose. Charities have to operate in quite a different way to other types of legal entity. You can’t really compare them.
if you don’t want them to be companies what sort of entity do you want them to be? Would you stop them being CICs or companies limited by guarantee too? Because they don’t have to be run for profit either.

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Thanks for the lesson on charitable status. Are you honestly suggesting that this is a morally justifiable position? So the charitable status that facilitates these benefits in terms of amenities, space and resources is absolutely fine when state schools can't claim these benefits as they are not charities? It is a ludicrous situation, however you word it.

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 04/07/2023 20:43

“Hardly a distraction technique, so you think the 7% of people that make up 39 % of the most influential jobs (Senior judges, Cabinet office, MPs...) Is not a concern?

Ultimately, education is the main driver of social mobility. It can't be dismissed as irrelevant as that is clearly inaccurate.”

”Influential jobs” are driven by wealth & cultural capital more than education.

A very bright kid with no parental wealth won’t necessarily go into Politics or become a judge if Finance and Tech pays far better and they won’t inherit so have to pay for their own house.
Even if you remove private schools, the top echelons mingle amongst each other anyway and occupy those jobs. The innate confidence that comes with background is what propels people into those jobs.

In any event, private education really does not buy privilege. Plenty of friends here choosing state education who are extremely connected and privileged and physical place of education 4-18 won’t make a difference. Especially not now that tutoring is rife and it is easier to get into elite universities from the state sector.
The smart privileged person actually now often chooses state education as it makes more sense.
No school is worth 45k per year - just as state schools are underfunded, private schools are grossly overcharging because no child makes us of £45k worth of education. A happy medium for all would be nice. However, it won’t eradicate privilege especially not in a country that is so class based and that refuses to tax wealth and land properly.

Goldenbear · 04/07/2023 20:53

Usernamehell · 04/07/2023 20:34

Please do elaborate where exactly I have dismissed a single policy that helps with funding state school pupils. If you re-read my posts, I give the state sector my full support and actively campaign for better funding and write to my MP. We as a society will benefit from children being educated well.

I myself am state educated and have got to where I am against adversity, most certainly not because of it. I was bullied in a horrific way to the extent where I nearly ended my life on multiple occasions as a teenager. Something pulled me back from the brink and I managed to get my head down and make something of myself.

I continue to spend my life caring for others who are struggling for one reason for another. I only practice in the NHS, not privately, I go back home and volunteer in rural medical camps regularly, we sponsor children's education back home too. I lead by example and whilst my children may still be young, they are very much aware of how fortunate they are

I will not sacrifice my own children's education for idealistic morals and make no apologies for this.

Your viewpoint is impossible to understand anyway. You join a thread to apply ridiculous stereotypes to all children being privately educated and state how much better off your children are in the state sector...then move onto complaining that it isn't fair that your children don't have access to that sector and we should somehow level the playing field to the lowest common denominator when it comes to education...and this target just continues to move with no clear aim to what you stand for (other than complaining that others are wealthier than you)

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I can't really argue that we don't have wealth as that would be a lie. I wasn't making the point about my DC going to private school, I was making the point that 'all children' deserve a good education or rather wealthy children have done nothing more to deserve a well funded education, they just happen to have parents that are wealthy. It is not like other aspects of life in that regard as children can't do anything about this fortune of birth.

The implication or indeed direct accusation on here by many private school advocates is that by choosing state school you are sacrificing your children's best interests and that anybody who had the money wouldn't do that, well actually some us have different principles that they stand by and they would never, ever pay for education because of the advantage it provides regardless of whether they are wealthy or not!

Goldenbear · 04/07/2023 20:58

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 04/07/2023 20:43

“Hardly a distraction technique, so you think the 7% of people that make up 39 % of the most influential jobs (Senior judges, Cabinet office, MPs...) Is not a concern?

Ultimately, education is the main driver of social mobility. It can't be dismissed as irrelevant as that is clearly inaccurate.”

”Influential jobs” are driven by wealth & cultural capital more than education.

A very bright kid with no parental wealth won’t necessarily go into Politics or become a judge if Finance and Tech pays far better and they won’t inherit so have to pay for their own house.
Even if you remove private schools, the top echelons mingle amongst each other anyway and occupy those jobs. The innate confidence that comes with background is what propels people into those jobs.

In any event, private education really does not buy privilege. Plenty of friends here choosing state education who are extremely connected and privileged and physical place of education 4-18 won’t make a difference. Especially not now that tutoring is rife and it is easier to get into elite universities from the state sector.
The smart privileged person actually now often chooses state education as it makes more sense.
No school is worth 45k per year - just as state schools are underfunded, private schools are grossly overcharging because no child makes us of £45k worth of education. A happy medium for all would be nice. However, it won’t eradicate privilege especially not in a country that is so class based and that refuses to tax wealth and land properly.

Yes and how do you think wealth and cultural capital are aquired, have been aquired, through education. If it wasn't there wouldn't have been or currently be any movement between classes and that is clearly not the case over the last 60+ years!

EffortlessDesmond · 04/07/2023 21:00

Frankly my dears, I don't give a damn... I haven't inherited anything, apart from enough to build a garden table to my preference, from my grandma (£400). DH's mum died recently and split the value of her home, after three years self-funded care home fees, the proceeds of selling her home, between two children. Below IHT threshold. I benefited from being clever enough to go free of charge to a prestigious university in 1974. Both my parents are still alive and edging towards 90, which is wonderful. And between then and now, DH and I have bought a house, with a mortgage (paid off), saved a bit, built a company over 30 years, and have had enough leftover to fund our pension and help our single DC. It makes us fortunate, and grateful for the ambulance that saved DH's life 17 years ago.

Life is uncertain, for most of us who are not born into the oligarchy. You make the best of the cards dealt to you. And give thanks when the worst does not happen.

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 04/07/2023 21:12

“Yes and how do you think wealth and cultural capital are aquired, have been aquired, through education. If it wasn't there wouldn't have been or currently be any movement between classes and that is clearly not the case over the last 60+ years!”

Take Rishi Sunak who was definitely not born Upper Class whatsoever, but “acquired” money and social status. More like aspirational lower or middle middle class immigrant parents. It is not just Winchester College and his brains, job in the City that has propelled his class status - it is marriage, drive, job etc. His girls will be Upper Class, he was still Upper Middle. Marriage propelled him into international elite, whatever that represents in the UK now, from a class point of view. Because I bet, whatever his wallet and social status, he still has to contend with racism, probably day in day out.

Is that what you mean? Nobody knows if he would not have ended up in the same place if he had not gone to Winchester but had instead gone to a nice middle class secondary school like Peter Symonds in Winchester and then to Oxford. Why do you assume it is the private school that made him? The elite university surely is at least as important? As well as having driven parents who cared about his education and being driven himself - coupled with right place, right time, right marriage.
Education is really not just private education. That is an incredibly narrow view and very UK centric.