to think they would feel differently if they had children?

[Violetbeauregardesgum]

Just reflecting that the three most vehemently pro-abortion, abortion on demand up till 40 weeks women I know are all child free. Was talking to one the other day and was taken aback by how uncompromising she was. The 32 week old baby that the woman was imprisoned for aborting was not a baby, all women have the right to end a pregnancy at any point.

I am pro choice but think the 24 week cut off is about right. AIBU to think they would feel differently if they had gone through a pregnancy to term themselves?

It isn't the best thing if she wants an abortion, no.

I completely agree with OP. I have always believed myself to be pro choice - and continue to feel that way. But I think the boundaries currently set regarding timelines are fair - unless in extreme circumstances like OP suggests. I do also find it surprising that so many mothers on this feed seem comfortable saying it’s right to abort a fully formed baby!

This ‘as late as necessary’ idea actually worries me! How can anyone think it is right to abort a baby at 40weeks - that is categorically murder and should ethically be considered wrong.

Still pro-choice just like OP. Just within the realms of what is ethically right!

And if the baby has a medical condition incompatible with life, you would also do this? If not, why not? Are babies with disabilities 'worth' less?

If 40 wk termination was allowed then why waste resources in the termination itself, why not just suffocate the baby at birth. Same difference. And any criminal conviction for infanticide should be quashed.

But timelines currently allow abortion up to term in cases of disability, why are you ok with this but not in cases with no disability? I ask the same as i asked the other poster, are babies with disabilities 'worth' less?

This

Even compatible with life which includes DS, birth defects etc abortions for medical reasons are allowed until birth.

Is that murder too? Or is it only murder if they are 'good enough' to adopt?

If people want to reduce abortion rates they could campaign for the following

Stopping the 2 baby limit for child benefit (massively increased the abortion rate)
Bringing back sure start clinics
Increased funding for maternal care particually for black women who still have higher maternal death rates
A working CMS system
Educating men around not abandoning their children (ever see a government campaign about that money saver?)
Stopping the self employed loophole that let's men opt out of CMS
Stopping women from having to facilitate relationships with their rapist or abuser
Increasing the SMP to a livable amount
Increasing paternity leave and pay
Incentivising companies to promote shared parental leave instead of allowing a culture where men are discouraged
Stop moaning about WFH, which allows both men and women to facilitate school runs without compromises to their career
Subsidised childcare
Way way better provision and funding for families with disabled children
Better respite care for disabled children
Easier to access government funding to leave abusive relationships including comprehensive therapy sessions
Better, more plentiful social housing
Free school meals including in the summer holidays

There are load and loads more things that could help reduce the need for abortions if that's what bothers you. But trying to take away the choice without tackling those issues is fairly abhorrent

But what do I know I haven't held a live baby I've given birth to in my arms so I clearly lack empathy

The opposite for me. Experiencing pregnancy, birth and motherhood has made me more fiercely convinced that no woman should ever be forced to do it ahainst their will. It's made me more protective of my bodily autonomy and more understanding of how wildly women's experiences can differ.

this sums it up and I think it is disgusting how women’s healthcare is still so poor around the world

YANBU.

If the pregnancy is unwanted absolutely terminate early on. The longer left the more viable life is. My friends cousin had a baby who weighed the same as a bag of sugar at 24 weeks. He survived.

I'd think 20 weeks latest is where it should be. I mean nearly 4 months into a 9 month term is enough time, surely?

Ref whether you have kids or not, is irrelevant, OP. The point is whether life is viable. How monstrous would it be to terminate a pregnancy of a healthy baby that could survive.

There's been a significant shift in activism around this. Mainly imported from American activists.

Europe and the UK always had a fairly significant social consensus that limits that are based on developmental stage and viability are reasonable and proportionate both in terms of respecting women's rights and also respecting human life generally.

The shift may turn out to be a real own goal, because the fact of the matter is huge numbers of men and women who consider themselves pro-choice under the old approach will not shift their views on late term abortion just because someone accuses them of being anti-choice. People put weight and value on the fact that killing a 30 week old fetus is functionally identical to killing a term newborn, and they don't think that is morally neutral.

Which is to say, they may well begin to see the pro-choice position as problematic when previously they supported it.

I had a traumatic birth with DS and I’m now 16 weeks pregnant and staring down the barrel of the gun at terminating for medical reasons a very much wanted second baby. I will have to give birth to the baby due to gestation - it has taken this long to get all the test results etc. And we were ‘lucky’ this was all flagged at the 12 week scan, not the 20 week. Yes I have felt the baby move and yes it is awful. Despite being pro choice, I never intended to terminate a baby myself, and yet here we are. Now I will add to the statistics everyone pores over, trying to determine whether the decision was justified or not.

I can’t imagine anyone doing this without good reason - whatever that may be - and it’s all made me even more pro choice than I already was.

Sorry, I don't see what the difference is in practical terms. What difference does it make to someone seeking to not be pregnant whether the child is killed first, or immediately removed from their care afterwards, never to be seen again? Why is the child being dead important?

The OP is pro choice within reason. If we could vote and it seems we need to most people would vote against a full term abortion just because the mother had changed her mind. The baby surely would have to be delivered either way so it seems cruel to me. I agree with you OP.

The Pro choice people (like you) see things black and white.

At the end of the day the law is what it despite all pro life idiots. I had one at 22 weeks & I care not about strangers who disagree, thank goodness for common sense

I don't have children, never wanted children and while I believe a woman has the right to choose I don't actually agree with abortion myself, unless really necessary, and certainly not at a late stage. And I don't care what anyone else thinks, so there is no need to pile on and tell me I'm wrong.

Having had a still birth of a very wanted baby I still understand why people use those phrases although I understand why you find them difficult

You have no idea what my view is. I haven't stated it anywhere on this thread. I have pointed out inconsistencies in other peoples positions.

Your friends may be people who have successfully managed their contraception, and feel that others should have been equally responsible. They may be women who have suffered miscarriage, or struggled to conceive. There are many reasons why people feel the way they do, all valid.

my eyes have been opened too.

This.

A child can't be adopted without the consent of the father.

An abusive man would claim that child and further abuse the woman with it.

That would be pretty important for the woman involved.

I don’t understand this, there’s a huge difference between a medical condition incompatible with life and a disability. I don’t understand why you’re conflating the two.

Your op smacks of 'if only women knew how cute babies are, they'd never abort!'

Read some case studies about late abortion - it's incredibly rare and often for very complicated or compelling reasons, often for example teenagers who didn't realize they were pregnant, or where someone is coping with other challenging caring responsibilities, or illness, etc etc. The law should allow discretion because life isn't black and white.

I'm strongly pro choice, all the more since having children. Make every child a wanted child.

All these saying you are not pro choice shoumd consider one thing. Would you be happy to kill prematurely born viable healthy child at 30 weeks? Or 35 weeks? It's no different for non necessary abortion at that point. Or actually it is because at thatpoint for most it's just a picyure on a print out?

I am very much for late as necessary for medical reasons, but cut of at viability is there for a reason.