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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think they would feel differently if they had children?

1000 replies

Violetbeauregardesgum · 28/06/2023 18:28

Just reflecting that the three most vehemently pro-abortion, abortion on demand up till 40 weeks women I know are all child free. Was talking to one the other day and was taken aback by how uncompromising she was. The 32 week old baby that the woman was imprisoned for aborting was not a baby, all women have the right to end a pregnancy at any point.

I am pro choice but think the 24 week cut off is about right. AIBU to think they would feel differently if they had gone through a pregnancy to term themselves?

OP posts:
karmakameleon · 01/07/2023 09:59

MargotBamborough · 01/07/2023 09:46

I've already explained numerous problems with your approach in quite a lot of detail.

You can lead a horse to water, etc.

So tell me, why does this system of guidelines work in every other area of medicine but this one? What is different about abortion?

MargotBamborough · 01/07/2023 10:02

karmakameleon · 01/07/2023 09:59

So tell me, why does this system of guidelines work in every other area of medicine but this one? What is different about abortion?

Well the fact that it necessarily involves ending another human life which could be anywhere in its development from "tadpole" to "fully grown infant" is quite relevant. But I can see you don't really want to engage with the hard questions.

karmakameleon · 01/07/2023 10:02

MargotBamborough · 01/07/2023 09:52

Ultimately it is the job of lawmakers to test whether the law being proposed works or not.

Yours doesn't.

If it did, women in Canada (a country which actually has the lack of clear rules you are advocating for) wouldn't have to travel to the States to get the late term abortions they are supposedly entitled to by law.

Didn’t someone upthread explain the Canada situation because it’s legal in federal law but most state laws have limits? So not legal to term in reality?

But either way, you haven’t ever explained how you deal with the vulnerable women currently denied abortions at 24 weeks except for explaining to them that it’s tough shit they missed the deadline. I don’t believe you’d be too worried about someone denied closer to term.

karmakameleon · 01/07/2023 10:04

MargotBamborough · 01/07/2023 10:02

Well the fact that it necessarily involves ending another human life which could be anywhere in its development from "tadpole" to "fully grown infant" is quite relevant. But I can see you don't really want to engage with the hard questions.

That’s very pro life language. I thought I was debating with a pro choice poster.

MargotBamborough · 01/07/2023 10:15

karmakameleon · 01/07/2023 10:04

That’s very pro life language. I thought I was debating with a pro choice poster.

You are debating with a pro choice poster, as is obvious to anyone actually reading my posts.

And I am clearly debating with an ideologue who thinks safeguarding is unfashionable and wants to make the law on the basis of catchy slogans and "trust doctors" to prevent there being any undesirable outcomes as a result of removing the current legal framework around abortion (which pretty much every country on the planet thinks it is necessary to have, in some form).

Doctors might be highly qualified and trained to make difficult decisions in their patients' best interests, but they are not God. They are human and they are fallible and they are overworked, and they don't need this additional responsibility you want to heap onto them, or to suffer the consequences of getting it wrong.

And not to put too fine a point on it, some doctors are Harold Shipman and some doctors are Siadbh Gallagher, who advertises to 13 year olds on Tiktok that she will cut off their healthy breasts for $12,000 with no questions asked. Some IVF doctors have been found to have impregnated patients with their own sperm. There are many, many examples out there of why we cannot just "trust doctors" and do actually need rules and safeguarding in a medical context just like we do in many other contexts.

karmakameleon · 01/07/2023 10:21

You are debating with a pro choice poster, as is obvious to anyone actually reading my posts.

Its not really that clear when you dismiss the many examples of vulnerable women and girls in challenging circumstances with absolutely no empathy.

And I think using Harold Shipman as a reason to stop doctors doing the jobs they are trained for really s scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

MargotBamborough · 01/07/2023 10:28

karmakameleon · 01/07/2023 10:21

You are debating with a pro choice poster, as is obvious to anyone actually reading my posts.

Its not really that clear when you dismiss the many examples of vulnerable women and girls in challenging circumstances with absolutely no empathy.

And I think using Harold Shipman as a reason to stop doctors doing the jobs they are trained for really s scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

You can have empathy and still believe that we need a legal framework to provide certainty.

You certainly don't seem to have any empathy for the women who would have a worse outcome as a result of the removal or extension of the 24 week limit, and it's unclear what you think should happen to vulnerable women after they have given birth to a dead full term foetus and been discharged from hospital.

Ultimately there is no system which is going to produce the best outcome in every single case, and I think the current system strikes a better balance than the (lack of) one you are proposing.

And for the last time, carrying out a procedure which has never been legal in this country or in the vast majority of other countries is certainly not what doctors are trained for.

Harold Shipman is simply an example of why saying "trust doctors and remove the legal framework we have to deal with these very vulnerable patients" is dangerous nonsense.

karmakameleon · 01/07/2023 10:38

Dismissing their predicament and saying tough shit, too late isn’t very empathetic in my opinion.

Woman who have late term abortions would be treated in exactly the same way as they are now. Mothers of disabled children who choose to TFMR have counselling etc so why do you women in other difficult circumstances wouldn’t be offered the same?

A system that allows individuals to make the best decisions, as I propose, in each circumstance is better than the blunt tool of legislation.

And for the last time doctors are trained to terminate past 24 weeks. They do so frequently.

Harald Shipman’s patients/ victims were elderly women. Why are you not proposing similar laws in geriatric medicine?

MargotBamborough · 01/07/2023 10:48

So, a postcode lottery, two women in the same predicament potentially getting two very different outcomes depending on the doctor, no clarity for women about when a doctor will say yes and when they might say no.

Moral victory for you without any responsibility for making hard decisions and potentially getting it wrong.

Got it.

karmakameleon · 01/07/2023 10:50

I don’t think you read anything I write. I’ve already explained to you how medical guidelines work and how they ensure consistency of treatment.

MargotBamborough · 01/07/2023 10:58

Except they don't ensure anything of the sort, do they?

karmakameleon · 01/07/2023 11:04

Seriously how do you think that it works in every other area of medicine? Or are you saying that the whole system needs an overhaul and the legislators should get involved in cancer care and every other field of medicine? Because otherwise your position is completely inconsistent.

MargotBamborough · 01/07/2023 11:08

Erm, loads of areas of medicine are a postcode lottery, especially in women's healthcare. Such as whether you can have three rounds of IVF or one or none, and how young you have to be to have it. Or whether your request for an elective C-section will be green lighted by the consultant or whether you will have to fight for it. Or whether you and your baby are at greater risk of dying in childbirth due to your NHS trust applying an "avoid C-sections at all costs" approach like in the Shropshire maternity care scandal.

It's surprising that you don't know this.

MyTruthIsOut · 01/07/2023 11:08

karmakameleon · 01/07/2023 09:59

So tell me, why does this system of guidelines work in every other area of medicine but this one? What is different about abortion?

Seriously.

God help us if you genuinely can’t see the difference between having an appendix removed and the purposeful termination of a heathy, viable infant’s life.

PiIIock · 01/07/2023 11:11

God help us if you genuinely can’t see the difference between having an appendix removed and the purposeful termination of a heathy, viable infant’s life.

It's east entrance you're not the doctor who has to carry it out. You can distance yourself from reality and pretend it's ball of cells at 30 weeks.

Boomboom22 · 01/07/2023 11:20

Jeez this thread. Maybe we should make all crimes legal like infanticide as people wouldn't do that. Or murder as the person might be in poverty or mentally ill to want to hurt soneone else.
We need the law to protect our rights. Yes there are people who murder their babies or who would choose to end very late on eg because work got stressful. Celebrities use surrogates because they are busy or don't want stretchmarks ffs, I think the law now is quite Liberal anyway.

nothingcomestonothing · 01/07/2023 11:26

This thread has just become people talking at each other.

As long as you don't spread misinformation, or try to guilt other women about their choices, believe what you like.

There are no plans that I am aware of to change UK abortion law, so can we just agree that this is all theoretical and we don't all have the same opinion?

MargotBamborough · 01/07/2023 11:48

We will have to. The thread will be full up soon anyway!

TheoTheopolis23 · 01/07/2023 21:57

karmakameleon · 28/06/2023 18:36

I’m not sure if we know whether a foetus feels pain but we definitely know that women feel pain when they give birth. Some people just don’t think that women matter beyond their potential for child bearing.

As soon as it has a nervous system, you would imagine it can feel pain.

Nepmarthiturn · 02/07/2023 01:08

karmakameleon · 01/07/2023 10:50

I don’t think you read anything I write. I’ve already explained to you how medical guidelines work and how they ensure consistency of treatment.

Do you really believe there is consistency of treatment across trusts for most medical issues at the moment?

The data doesn't appear to bear this out, at all.

karmakameleon · 02/07/2023 08:19

Nepmarthiturn · 02/07/2023 01:08

Do you really believe there is consistency of treatment across trusts for most medical issues at the moment?

The data doesn't appear to bear this out, at all.

If you don’t think medical guidelines work then surely you need legislation in every area of medicine. Why don’t we have laws to ensure access to three rounds of IVF or guarantee access to the most modern cancer treatments? Why only in the one area of medicine do doctors need legislation to ensure they do the right thing?

Gytgyt · 02/07/2023 08:45

Boomboom22 · 01/07/2023 11:20

Jeez this thread. Maybe we should make all crimes legal like infanticide as people wouldn't do that. Or murder as the person might be in poverty or mentally ill to want to hurt soneone else.
We need the law to protect our rights. Yes there are people who murder their babies or who would choose to end very late on eg because work got stressful. Celebrities use surrogates because they are busy or don't want stretchmarks ffs, I think the law now is quite Liberal anyway.

The thing is, it's a quite a simple rule that we have laws in place for this exact example you have given. This thread has gone wild because people are basically arguing with the limits.

MargotBamborough · 02/07/2023 08:50

karmakameleon · 02/07/2023 08:19

If you don’t think medical guidelines work then surely you need legislation in every area of medicine. Why don’t we have laws to ensure access to three rounds of IVF or guarantee access to the most modern cancer treatments? Why only in the one area of medicine do doctors need legislation to ensure they do the right thing?

So not only do you think guidelines work well to ensure continuity of care across all NHS trusts, you also think this is the only area of healthcare which is the subject of legislation.

Blimey.

karmakameleon · 02/07/2023 09:04

MargotBamborough · 02/07/2023 08:50

So not only do you think guidelines work well to ensure continuity of care across all NHS trusts, you also think this is the only area of healthcare which is the subject of legislation.

Blimey.

Really you don’t know that abortion is the outlier in the extent to which legislation interferes with the ability of doctors to do their job? Blimey.

MargotBamborough · 02/07/2023 09:13

karmakameleon · 02/07/2023 09:04

Really you don’t know that abortion is the outlier in the extent to which legislation interferes with the ability of doctors to do their job? Blimey.

Oh I'm pretty sure the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act, the Suicide Act, the Children Act and the Mental Capacity Act contain quite a few restrictions on the ability of doctors to just do what they think is best.

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