to think they would feel differently if they had children?

[Violetbeauregardesgum]

Just reflecting that the three most vehemently pro-abortion, abortion on demand up till 40 weeks women I know are all child free. Was talking to one the other day and was taken aback by how uncompromising she was. The 32 week old baby that the woman was imprisoned for aborting was not a baby, all women have the right to end a pregnancy at any point.

I am pro choice but think the 24 week cut off is about right. AIBU to think they would feel differently if they had gone through a pregnancy to term themselves?

@tigger2022 I had no idea she knew, the articles I’d read about it had said she hadn’t known how far along she was. Clearly I need to do more reading about that case as I’ve not heard anything about her being in a desperate situation, though frankly I don’t care what kind of desperate situation someone is in - a 32 week old baby is a baby regardless of if you’ve yet given birth. The only way I had sympathy for her was thinking how absolutely horrified and traumatised she must have been to discover she’d killed her baby in such a way.

Isn't this at the core of the issue though? When does the fetus/baby become human enough that to kill it is akin to murder.

Extreme pro-choice advocates are determined to push the argument that this happens the second the baby is birthed and before that the woman should have absolute free reign to end the pregnancy at will. For many pro lifers life begins at conception and aborting at any stage is murder.

I think as a society we need to come to a position that balances the need to protect the sanctity of human life with protecting women's rights to bodily autonomy.

I think the vast majority of people can see that the development of a human being begins at conception and continues after birth. As with most things, it is totally logical that there could be a threshold of development defined where the fetus/baby is inferred rights of its own. I don't think it's rational though for a society to allow abortion hours before a baby could be born but then hand down 12 year sentences to a mother that killed a baby a few hours after its born. I think for many people it instinctively feels wrong to allow such later term abortions as we know that is ending a fully formed human's life in a potentially painful and cruel way. This would suggest the threshold should be quite a bit prior to birth and personally I think they've got it about right at the moment.

I totally agree with everything you say @Bumpitybumper

I didn't say that I am only in favor of it in those cases. I definitely agree with it in those cases and am against very late abortions but not sure how I feel about it in other circumstances.

Where are you finding these people?!
I have discussed the issue of abortion with many people over the years, and NEVER met anyone who suggested that being pro-choice meant it was ok to abort up to 40 weeks.
I'm finding it hard to believe that the OP has met anyone who truly thinks like this, never mind a whole load of child-free women who all think like that. Unless all her acquaintances are particularly stupid/thoughtless people?

I think I know an equal number of childless/parents that think it’s okay and an equal number of childless/parents who think it isn’t. That said I still think it’s reasonable to talk about how having children can change your perspective on these issues.

I think the law has it about right at the moment.

I think the callous extreme pro choicers like some on this thread who advocate being allowed to end the life of a viable baby up till 40 weeks are partially responsible for the overturning of Roe vs Wade. In the real world most people are sickened by the morally abhorrent view that it’s ok to kill a fully formed baby because its mother doesn’t want it.

And all the screeching about forced birth as if it’s the anti abortion lobby who have forced the mother to be pregnant in the first place. After 24 weeks, you are giving birth regardless. It’s not a choice between taking a pill to end the pregnancy or giving birth.

I agree that at a certain stage if a mother no longer wants a baby in her body she should be offered an early induction or section. She can walk away at that stage and leave the baby to be cared for by someone who does want it. She has the right to say she does not want the child in her body any more but she does not have the right to deny it a chance of life.

I had my daughter at 32 weeks. But I still think abortion should be decriminalised.

There are many many reasons why a woman wants to abort, not least because she can't get the support she needs. Instead of throwing women in prison, why not invest in better access to sex education, contraception and mental health support? I still think legally a cut-off point is needed though.

That's exactly the point - amidst the ongoing abortion debate, a young girl in the UK is driven to a horrific situation which was completely avoidable. The system failed her. Her sentence is longer than that of someone who stalked, groomed, planned and committed a brutal and calculated sexual assault. I very much doubt that this girl or any other woman would choose to be in this situation. Late term abortion is horrific and no one is disputing that. It's the same as a stillbirth - no one would ever choose this lightly. Why then isn't the focus on how to avoid this at all costs? Could a nurse have visited schools and handed out contraception? Could there have been a girls only sex education lesson where someone explained about confidentiality and that treatment on the NHS is free? A young girl so desperately didn't want a child that she killed hers. Abortion isn't the issue, all over the world women are denied control of their reproductive health - why???

Also sorry not had time to read the rest of the thread as going to work. I’m sure there are lots of lovely posts calling me everything under the sun though!

I think you’re referring to another person? There was a 15 year old jailed for giving birth in secret and then killing the newborn, and then there was the woman (who was already a mother of three) in her 30s who had a late term abortion by lying about how far along she was. In both cases the women sounded pretty desperate and struggling with MH, but shown no mercy.

I can't believ how many people are standing up for that 15 year old who brutally murdered her child, presumably by stomping on it's head and stuffing cotton in it's mouth.
Nothing, absolutely nothing excuses that. And that sentence is imho right.

Well precisely - there's no shortage of examples - and this is in the UK! In much of the world young girls are forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term, putting their lives and those of the infant at risk - women still die in childbirth. Instead of debating when a woman is allowed an abortion and at what point she becomes an evil baby killer, maybe all women - regardless of their stance on abortion - should collectively be asking why they don't have free unrestricted access to contraception?

There are enough vulnerable women caught out by the current law that it should be updated. I’ll repost my earlier link from BPAS.

https://www.bpas.org/about-our-charity/press-office/press-releases/british-women-forced-to-continue-pregnancies-that-risk-their-health/

YABU. Having a baby doesn’t make you a special empath. Often quite the reverse …

All women in the UK do have unrestricted free access to contraception, as well as some of the most liberal abortion laws in the world.

I think there has to come a point in pregnancy where, regardless of the vulnerability of the mother, she has to see it through to the end.

Of course women should be supported in all the ways you suggest to avoid unplanned and unwanted pregnancies and to be able to access a legal abortion in a timely fashion if this is what they want. I also agree that all these cases are absolute tragedies and unspeakably sad.

There does have to be a point though where we acknowledge that someone has unlawfully killed another human being. Lots of murders happen in really sad and desperate circumstances but that doesn't mean we can condone them. I don't think anyone would be shocked if a mother got a 12 year sentence for killing their toddler, primary school aged child or teenager irrespective of the mother's dire situation. I think it's hard to argue that a newborn baby's murder should be treated any differently otherwise when does a human life become valuable enough to be protected by law? It's a slippery slope... I also think logically it's difficult to argue that such late term abortions should be allowed but immediate infanticide after birth should be treated so harshly. It is much more coherent to suggest that the cut off is earlier in gestation when the fetus isn't as well developed.

For those women who cannot understand pro choice at any point in a pregnancy, if you had ever experienced being pregnant while being trapped in an abusive relationship you would understand a little better how the option of abortion at any stage of pregnancy is essential.

I completely feel sorry for her, I don’t know if it was DV but it sounded like she wanted the baby but was afraid of the consequences of having the baby. I think she was living with someone and she didn’t know whether he was the father or not or something. I still so don’t agree that in the absence of any medical reason late term abortions should be legal, but I also don’t think prison is a proportionate sentence. Especially as she had children already, one of whom has special needs and is dependent on her.

I'm not aware of this story but that is absolutely chilling.

Easy to say when you're not the one in that position. Afghanistan has the highest rate of infant mortality in the world - imagine going through a horrific labour, perhaps resulting in life changing injuries , and the baby dies immediately or a few days or a week after. Do those women have access to contraception? Does anyone care?

Men on average get 2-6 years for killing a woman. Women on average get 15 years for killing a man. And here a child gets 12 years for killing a baby.

So if we are considering human life as valuable if its protected by law then it would appear that womens lives are not valuable at all

The fact that infanticide was not considered in this case is interesting. Infanticide acknowledges that women who have just gone through pregnancy/pnd etc may have committed an act that they otherwise wouldn't have done. It also often leads to medical and mental support and treatment for that woman/child instead of just putting her in prison.

However, instead of giving her the support that she clearly needs, shes been incarcerated for 12 years whilst men get off with 2-6 years and rapists of the same age as her get nothing at all if they happen to be good at sports or have a bright future.

This discussion is about the UK where thankfully the vast vast majority of people have access to contraception.

@Catchasingmewithspiders exactly the justice system is a bottomless pit of mercy and leniency for men who rape women. The other thing that struck me is that unlike rape there is zero chance of reoffending.

I'm confused, if you can abort a foetus which would be viable outside of the womb why not just give birth (which you have to after a certain point regardless of whether you've terminated or not) and have the child adopted? Why terminate its life first??

'As late as necessary' means what? You can decide not to allow the baby to live even though as soon as it's removed from your body it would be capable of doing so without you?