Page 16 | to think they would feel differently if they had children?

SouthLondonMum22 · 28/06/2023 23:36

Jellifulfruit · 28/06/2023 23:25

Interesting. And why is that? What makes a difference between a layer of skin? Because surely if you believe it’s ok to end a pregnancy up to 40 weeks gestation, then surely you’re ok with a new mum smothering their baby just as it’s born? Genuinely curious

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The difference is birth.

What’s the difference between 23 weeks 6 days and 24 weeks?

Sunsetandsunrise · 28/06/2023 23:43

BelindaBears · 28/06/2023 18:41

So what on earth do any of your follow up posts have to do with child-free people? I didn’t lose all my critical thinking abilities once I had a baby, and I wasn’t unfeeling before I had a child. Sounds like another excuse to be patronising about people (women, let’s face it) who don’t have children.

@Violetbeauregardesgum how about you answer this? I am baffled at you pinning this on child free women when there is a diversity of thought on this issue among both the child free and mothers.

You asked if it was unreasonable to think women would think differently if they had kids and you’ve clearly seen many women saying no it doesn’t make a difference (except that maybe they are even more pro abortion now after having kids) and now you’ve totally just glossed over that part about trying to make it a mother vs child free issue?!

The irony is if a child free women was against abortion she would be slated for that too by some who would say what does she know about the struggles of motherhood. People need to stop shutting down other points of view based on whether a person has a child or not! Everyone is entitled to have an opinion on this as we’re all part of society.

Sunsetandsunrise · 28/06/2023 23:50

Catchasingmewithspiders · 28/06/2023 19:00

And your apology to childfree women for villifying them for no reason will be forthcoming soon I suppose?

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Exactly! Absolutely outrageous.

tigger2022 · 28/06/2023 23:57

I think it’s completely reasonable to ask whether having children has changed your view… for me it did, for other women it made them more sure of their first opinion. But either way, it made a difference, so why not ask the question?

C152 · 29/06/2023 00:03

Yes, YABU and no, you are not pro-choice.

Sunsetandsunrise · 29/06/2023 00:05

FufferPish · 28/06/2023 20:00

Indeed, leave having children or not out of it. It's getting ridiculous with the pro-natalism on here in the last few days and the childfree bashing. Women are able to formulate an opinion independent from their procreational status.

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Where are these other anti-childfree threads people are referencing? Can someone please link them?

tigger2022 · 29/06/2023 00:10

But people have said having children HAS changed their view in one direction or the other, so clearly it was worthwhile asking the question

Sunsetandsunrise · 29/06/2023 00:13

tigger2022 · 28/06/2023 23:57

I think it’s completely reasonable to ask whether having children has changed your view… for me it did, for other women it made them more sure of their first opinion. But either way, it made a difference, so why not ask the question?

They didn’t ask that though. The OP suggested there was a link between being child free and the position three women held and asked if they were being unreasonable to think the women are only of that opinion due to not having children /giving birth.

There’s a difference between asking mothers if their views shifted to pro-life or pro-choice with the birth of a child…and the way she worded it where the focus was on child free women and suggesting that they don’t see anything wrong in it because they haven’t had kids. She never even came back to clarify that she was clearly wrong when it became apparent from the responses that many mothers felt the same as her “child free villains”

This is what she said “ am pro choice but think the 24 week cut off is about right. AIBU to think they would feel differently if they had gone through a pregnancy to term themselves?”

Nepmarthiturn · 29/06/2023 00:23

Agreed. The law in the UK is, AFAIK, the most liberal in Europe. Attempting to change it would trigger a debate that could see the law becoming more restrictive, not less. I can't think of anything more likely to result in a horrific situation like America than trying to change a law that, overall, seems to work ok most of the time. The BPAS cases of women being unable to access termination appointments just before the cut-off gave me pause for thought, but my concern is that trying to change the law to accommodate those cases could result in a lowering of that cutoff that would affect huge numbers of women. The vast majority of European countries don't permit terminations beyond 12 weeks- why would you risk that becoming reality here?

Exactly. Don't underestimate the nutters systematically trying to trash women's rights. Reopening a debate about abortion law that seems to be functioning pretty well as a reasonable balance between conflicting rights would be very dangerous, especially in the current climate.

If women are struggling to access BPAS appts because of lack of availability then the problem appears to be - like with almost everything else in the UK - lack of funding of appropriate service levels, rather than a problem with the law itself.

SouthLondonMum22 · 29/06/2023 01:13

Nepmarthiturn · 29/06/2023 00:23

Agreed. The law in the UK is, AFAIK, the most liberal in Europe. Attempting to change it would trigger a debate that could see the law becoming more restrictive, not less. I can't think of anything more likely to result in a horrific situation like America than trying to change a law that, overall, seems to work ok most of the time. The BPAS cases of women being unable to access termination appointments just before the cut-off gave me pause for thought, but my concern is that trying to change the law to accommodate those cases could result in a lowering of that cutoff that would affect huge numbers of women. The vast majority of European countries don't permit terminations beyond 12 weeks- why would you risk that becoming reality here?

Exactly. Don't underestimate the nutters systematically trying to trash women's rights. Reopening a debate about abortion law that seems to be functioning pretty well as a reasonable balance between conflicting rights would be very dangerous, especially in the current climate.

If women are struggling to access BPAS appts because of lack of availability then the problem appears to be - like with almost everything else in the UK - lack of funding of appropriate service levels, rather than a problem with the law itself.

Of course it's also a problem with the law if they are forced to continue their pregnancy because of that very law.

Furries · 29/06/2023 01:28

Ah, got to love the “I’m pro-choice but …” posts. Which then clearly show they’re anything but. Which then, 3 pages in, result in the OP stomping their feet and announcing that they’re going out and won’t be responding (or words to that effect).

Sorry, that has probably been covered already, but I only “read all” on OP posts.

Op - am sure you’ll still pop back to read - you really are not pro-choice. Simple as and own it - campaign or put across your view, but don’t dress it up as pro-choice.

Nooneknowswhatgoesonbehindcloseddoors · 29/06/2023 01:41

jenandberrys · 28/06/2023 18:30

Sounds like you are not pro choice. Which is fine, but don't pretend you are.

This is a bit weird, but I am pro choice for others and not for myself. I have always thought that I wouldn't have had an abortion for any reason. I am now postmenopausal so never will be an issue.

Whyisegg · 29/06/2023 02:52

By child free I guess that includes the woman who had to terminate a pregnancy due to life threatening hyperemesis gravidarum? A woman struggling with addiction? Not to mention the women with children who have abortions. When a pregnancy inconveniences a man abortion is suddenly a very reasonable option and not something to agonise over or regret. Why do adult women hold their lives in such little value, they allow themselves to be the subject of debate - to accept the idea that an unborn child is of the same worth as everything a woman is to all the people who love her, the life she's built? Where is the anti-abortion campaign for free contraception?? An IUD bus could drive around the UK fitting copper coils to every 16 year old girl - no more abortions!

LuckyPeonies · 29/06/2023 02:59

nopuppiesallowed · 28/06/2023 19:43

Agree. To those saying 'as late as necessary' where exactly is your cut off point? Just before birth? 32 weeks? It's a fully formed baby, just small. I remember the horror of reading of China during its one child policy and babies there having injections into their fontanelle as they were being delivered. Is that acceptable here, now? When you want a child, you say 'I'm expecting a baby'. When you don't, 'I'm terminating a pregnancy'.
Yes. Horrible to become pregnant when you don't want a baby (it's happened to lots of us) - but there's a really good method of preventing conception - you can choose to be sterilised. My body - my choice. So that's when you choose - not when you are carrying a thumb sucking mini child.

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‘When you want a child, you say 'I'm expecting a baby'. When you don't, 'I'm terminating a pregnancy'.’

Well of course! Whether you want something or not determines how you feel about it, and think about it. When you want sex it’s great, when you don’t, it’s rape. Same physical act, very different perception and impact on the woman in that situation. Just like wanted vs. unwanted pregnancy.

As for sterilization, many people - women and men - are outright denied sterilization if they are under 30 or child free. So it is not as easy as you make it out to be.

MissTrip82 · 29/06/2023 03:03

I have children. You’re anti-choice. And a misogynist if you really think women expressing views are ‘frothing’ or that women without children can’t grasp this issue.

allmyliesaretrue · 29/06/2023 03:13

Violetbeauregardesgum · 28/06/2023 18:35

Ah, gotta love the posters who don't even bother to read the OP!

I am pro choice. But I do not think that women should be able to have abortions past 24 weeks unless there is a threat to the life of the mother, or the child is going to be severely disabled. Feel free to ignore this post if it suits your argument to pretend I am some kind of right wing pro-lifer but I am most certainly not.

I am surprised that anyone who has gone through a pregnancy would think it ok to terminate a healthy baby beyond 30 weeks or so.

I agree with you! It shocks me that there are people who believe it’s ok to abort a full term or near-term, just because a woman has belatedly decided she doesn’t want it?! I don’t care what anyone says, it’s murder so far as I am concerned.

Up to 24 weeks, your decision. I just can’t get my mind around killing a viable baby and nothing will change my mind! It’s horrific!

Whyisegg · 29/06/2023 03:16

There was a case recently in the UK of a 15 year old girl who killed her baby immediately after giving birth alone in her bedroom. She was too scared to tell her parents about the pregnancy and didn't know where to go for help. She was sentenced to 12 years in prison for murder - rapists and pedofiles don't even get half that. Clearly a system in which a 15 year old girl carries a baby to term believing she has no other choice and nobody around her even notices the pregnancy is not supporting women and girls as it should. A late term abortion presumably would be preferable to what this girl went through?

Aprilx · 29/06/2023 03:33

Violetbeauregardesgum · 28/06/2023 18:35

Ah, gotta love the posters who don't even bother to read the OP!

I am pro choice. But I do not think that women should be able to have abortions past 24 weeks unless there is a threat to the life of the mother, or the child is going to be severely disabled. Feel free to ignore this post if it suits your argument to pretend I am some kind of right wing pro-lifer but I am most certainly not.

I am surprised that anyone who has gone through a pregnancy would think it ok to terminate a healthy baby beyond 30 weeks or so.

What is the point of your thread? Are you trying to demonise childless women as baby murderers or something? It seems so.

justrude · 29/06/2023 04:13

karmakameleon · 28/06/2023 18:30

The first time I realised so strongly I felt about abortion was when I held my newborn baby in the arms. I loved him to bits but omg it was tough those first few weeks and I just thought I wouldn’t wish this on anyone who doesn’t really want it.

This. I have never been as pro choice, as I have since I became a parent.

Daffodilwoman · 29/06/2023 05:03

I’m a mother and I’m fully pro choice.
Abortion after 24 weeks doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
I’d rather see less people having unwanted children to be honest. I have always held this view.

tigger2022 · 29/06/2023 05:24

I find it so weird people are complaining that pro-choice people aren’t pro-choice enough, like it’s an exercise in being a true believer and not trying to get a policy right.

greenisnotserene · 29/06/2023 05:27

@Violetbeauregardesgum have you experienced infertility, pregnancy loss or termination for medical reasons? The people that have are usually pro choice. As in the people who have to try harder than anyone and experience severe trauma to have a child are prochoice, why do you think this is.

What you are saying comes across as, "well if you aren't a mother with a living child you shouldn't get to have an opinion, I'm special as I had a child so I get to have an opinion." Quite frankly I think it's disgusting that you disregard other people's opinions because they have a different knowledge, understanding or experience to you. You are no better than the evil people that terrorise those going into clinics to terminate their pregnancies.

georgarina · 29/06/2023 05:32

Anyone not understanding why a woman would have a late abortion should watch After Tiller

As early as possible, as late as necessary

ButImNotOldEnough · 29/06/2023 05:39

You are not unreasonable to say 24 weeks is a reasonable time limit to have an abortion within, a foetus that can survive outside the womb after this time is a living child regardless of if they’ve yet to be born. The woman should absolutely have been jailed for the death of her 32 week old baby had she known how far along she was (which she didn’t).

YAB incredibly U to say these people have those views because they don’t have children and incredibly dim witted in that view too.

tigger2022 · 29/06/2023 05:42

ButImNotOldEnough · 29/06/2023 05:39

You are not unreasonable to say 24 weeks is a reasonable time limit to have an abortion within, a foetus that can survive outside the womb after this time is a living child regardless of if they’ve yet to be born. The woman should absolutely have been jailed for the death of her 32 week old baby had she known how far along she was (which she didn’t).

YAB incredibly U to say these people have those views because they don’t have children and incredibly dim witted in that view too.

She did know how far along she was (she lied about being early on to get the pills). I think the element of deceiving other people is one of the reasons the judge was harsh, but I don’t think the judge should have been harsh at all. I think he should have shown mercy, she was in a desperate situation.