Is behaviour out of control in a lot of schools?

[Sophie12319]

Not sure whether to move DD (10) to another school. Everyday she's coming home saying she can't learn as there are a group of boys who throw stuff about the classroom, shout out when the teacher is talking, walk about the classroom in lesson. She has said teacher has sent them to headteacher in the past but it carries on.

This is not a teacher bashing thread btw (in fact, I have the upmost respect for DD's teacher as I have seen the boys behaviour at the school gate and I don't know how she does a whole day), maybe more of a parent bashing of why some parents let their kids behave like this?

Anyway, back to the point of thread, I spoke to my sister about moving her to which she said there's no point as he DS' school is the same.
Feel a bit hopeless as I feel DD's education is being ruined! I've emailed the school before about their behaviour but I feel at a loss!

@bombastix Well in the cases I can think of in my own family you could be correct, its not lack of love but probably the families under a great deal of stress financial and otherwise and not really being well regulated themselves. However even the the worse case I know the the parents, or at least the mum is actively seeking help and working with the nursery to improve the child's behaviour and awaiting referral to a psychologist. However the father is hyper-reactive and I think winds the children up, he doesn't self regulate well himself and uses alcohol to cope although he is a good man at heart. The children are certainly not allowed to just do anything.

Another observation is that childcare is often split between different people so the mother, the father, the grandmother, the aunts, nursery and so on so that the children possibly lack consistency of boundaries?

@eavietea / yes it's not a lack of love but love of your children is mostly about actions when young, being at home after school, listening to things that bother them no matter how tiny, simply being kind to them and making them feel they matter. I think financial pressure on patents is part of it. It is easy to pretend that parenting is something we can fit in, or because our children don't mention something, that all is well. Schools are impersonal places. Teachers cannot parent children who are probably very envious of other children who do have such parents and the time. The time is the thing. I am a single parent and understand these struggles myself. It is very hard for people.

A school for disruptive / poorly behaved kids. This is what is urgently needed. You can’t just dump them in a class of kids wanting to learn and shrug your shoulders and mutter words like ‘resilience’ and ‘inclusion’ when no one gets taught anything cause the teacher is too busy managing behaviour. That’s insane.

It's not necessarily the staffing levels. 20+ years ago there were no TAs in any of the junior schools I worked in on supply or in post. We had EAL pupils and no support for that beyond one hour a month when someone came in from the county.

But those needing special schools had them. And there honestly were fewer behaviour problems. It would be one in a yeargroup who would stand out for behaviour. Now it's several per class. And I work in a school with a 'good' catchment area.

Some of those are damaged children, emotionally due to their life experiences. Some have difficult SEND that impact them.
But some are just ruined and spoiled and can do no wrong at home.

Only in the last 10 years have I ever had classes where children would act so wilfully and defiantly. Before that I hadn't ever had a child choose to just walk out of a classroom or away from an adult speaking to them and know that nothing can be done to stop them.

Add on being complained at by parents if any discipline is needed for their child. Several complained in writing the other week re their teacher telling their child to sit down in a lesson, or telling them to finish their piece of work. All NT children.

Then restorative practice is a nail in the coffin as it is great for talking through disagreements and fall-outs. But absolutely rubbish for dealing with low level disruptive behaviour.

Oh, I know. 35 years teaching.
there’s neither the money nor the political will though.

Early on in my career I taught in several schools in socially and economically deprived areas. These areas have always had a COL crisis. There has always been poverty. I remember many of these students fondly. They had ambition they wanted to work hard to escape their circumstances.

Over the last 20 years or more there has been a steady decline in manners, respect and behaviour across society. Children and adults want instant gratification.

Jeremy repeatedly can't be bothered to bring a pen or pencil, books or other equipment. He acts as if the teacher who has to provide pens from her own pencil case should be grateful that he will use it. He never gives it back. Teacher has to sort our Jeremy and Jemina and several others so she can start the lesson. Meanwhile others have started chatting or have switched off. In pops Jack late 'got lost'. Only been in the school for 3 years and this is his form room. The others moan he stinks as he had been vaping! Begin again the poor quiet girl with autism can't take anymore interruptions and asks to go to the chill out area. At least 15 minutes of a 50 minute lesson wasted due to low level disruption.

This is a good lesson as the most really disruptive or aggressive individuals are absent or have already kicked off in another lesson. They have been sent to another area to discuss their behaviour before turning up late to the next lesson and kicking off again.

Jeremy gets offended when he is give a detention for repeatedly not bring equipment. His Mummy thinks we are picking on him as her son is from a good family. She suggests to the teacher that he doesn't need to do the detention. Moans to her friends at the gym that the school are too strict.

SEN and SEMH students have difficulties but aren't always disruptive. Sadly, many schools struggle to comply with their EHCP as it doesn't reflect the reality of a mainstream school. They are big noisy often cramped buildings. We don't have the specialist trained staff, we can't get untrained TAs as the wages and conditions are awful. No one wants kicked and sworn at all day. The Ed Psych often agrees to all sorts. (They no longer have to have experience of working in schools) Heads are often forced to agree if they have spare capacity. Parents and children feel let down.

As a country we don't seem to value education.

If we want to improve our education system we have to provide better facilities, training. Better working conditions for all staff. Reduce the admin. Support the staff not just toe the 'Academy' line and swerp things under the carpet.

Be realistic in what a mainstream school can provide for students with difficulties.

Acknowledge that disruptive behaviour is taking life chances away from students across the board.

Agreesive behaviour should not be tolerated.

Also, we have to look at ourselves. Our own behaviour and our parenting skills.

This just exemplifies what I mean when I say blame the environment not the parents and children.
It’s a hill that I’m willing to die on (as an ex primary teacher myself and now home educating parent), the UK school environment is unfit for today’s world and for todays kids.

Peoole up thread are saying that a ‘good education’ equates a better life but in all honesty whilst I’m a huge advocate of life long learning and ‘education’, academic success does not today equate life success. Yes in some casss they tie up for some people but we all know the people who leave school with next to no qualifications and do well in life, every teen in this country sees YouTubers and Influencers making millions off the back of personality or a good business idea. They don’t generally see the point in school (exceptions exist i know).

School is SO outdated in our digital world and kids know it. My children can literally learn anything they want for free online from home and no teacher required (no I don’t ‘teach’ them, I just facilitate their learning via their passions and interests)

School kids have that right taken away from them and they are told what to learn and when. Not what’s important to them but what out of touch Old Etonians dictate they should learn because they learnt it back in 1978.

Kids in general are bored and turned off from that natural love of learning they have before they start school (yes again I know there are a small number who like the sit down at a desk for 6/7 hours a day thing) and this is reflected in behaviour. I know there are some really challenging families out there. I know that there are people stuck in a poverty trap and parents struggling with all sorts too.

what I’m saying is that the ‘one size fits all’ style of education causes more harm than good. I’ve witnessed this over and over.

snd blaming parents for everything is naive and over simplistic.

DrMadelineMaxwell
totally agree with you about the defiance.
for me it’s literally post covid, until that point in 14 years of teaching I can probably count the occurrences of true defiance on one hand. Now it’s a frequent daily occurrence. There are no consequences at all for the kids just flatly refusing to follow basic instructions such as ‘go to class’ or take your coat off’ so why would they?

I think things have escalated since lockdowns so much because for the first time kids saw school as ‘optional’ and saw the true irrelevance of most of it and how forced upon them it is. How they are learning on someone else’s timetable and the unfairness of it all.

I’m not excusing true bad behaviour but something is wrong with the whole system (see my posts above) and many kids are just completely disengaged. I feel like unless something changes to make school more relevant to today’s kids schools are not going to re-engage pupils and parents sadly.

My friend works in schools and nurseries, it was like this before covid. I completely agree with those who need extra support being in classes with their peers but then they don’t have any extra support within that class and so when things kick off nothing can be done. Chairs being thrown etc I don’t know what the answer is. When I was at school 90s/00s those who needed extra support did some classes with us and then went somewhere else or if disrupting the class they went to the area with extra support rather than being left in the class

Covid lockdowns have a lot to answer for. Children were absolutely shafted more than any other group. So many of these posts say behaviour has worsened significantly since covid.

What concerns me is the detrimental effect this has on the well-being of other children in the class. I’m seeing increasing numbers of children develop anxiety and become school refusers and I’m convinced this is because the challenging children scare them and cause their well-being to suffer. It’s horrendous. It’s bad enough being a teacher and sworn at, hit, spat at, have things thrown at you, blanket refusal and smirking but to have that and be a quiet shy member of the classroom is awful. I’m guessing by the posts here that the vast majority of people posting work in education. I’m astounded more parents aren’t raising hell about this. And I’m not talking going to ofsted and complaining about the poor head whose hands are tied (in many many cases). I’m talking about it contacting the mp demanding more funding or provision as this problem is nationwide, but it doesn’t affect the people in charge because their babies go private.

Not seen any partivular difference since covid, it’s been on the rise for a number of years now and goes hand in hand with cuts to services, sure start, Camhs, sen provision and places in specialist schools, social services, police etc etc

At what point do we stop blaming covid though? Teachers are seeing this behaviour in 4/5 year olds. If they're still seeing it in 4/5 year olds in 5 years time do we still blame covid?

Huge secondary schools and lack of space probably don't help plus regimentation of lunch breaks and rush rush.

Can't even go to the loo in peace by the sounds of it

I work in early years. What I see on a daily basis -
parents scared to say no to children
thinking rude behaviour is “sassy” and funny
children never have to wait for anything. If they like a toy they’ve played with it’s ordered the same day because they need it.
children being bribed with treats to do any everyday thing they don’t like. And they are milking this.
children allowed to hit parents

it’s getting worse. We are trying to deal with very small children who do not respond to discipline. It’s not SEN it’s spoiled kids behaving badly and parents who let them rule the roost. Obviously not all parents are like this.

It’s blaming the government really.

I was in secondary in the early 00’s, though, and there were plenty of badly behaved kids then. I’m not a teacher so I can’t say what it’s really like on the inside, but more than one of my female teachers was reduced to tears by groups of boys in my class.

I do have to agree that it isn’t all those who need extra support that are disruptive though it can be those who are never told no or who have parents wanting to know why their kid was told off. I wouldn’t have dared told my parents I’d been told off by the teachers or I would have been for it. If my kids come home and say the teacher told them off I just say they would have had their reasons, if the school phone on the very rare occasion I deal with it at home as well

The thread currently running about what happened to children who weren't disciplined or received 'gentle parenting' type approaches is very revealing...

The title is along the lines of what happened to children who were allowed to be feral but most of the comments are from parents who favoured a more gentle approach to childrearing. Long story short - it doesn't seem to have turned out well.

It's bad parenting. Being kind and helpful to children also means helping with rules, expectations, being with others and so on. That gives them the best chance of getting on at school. You are not their friend, but someone who helps them manage becoming an adult.

A lot of children are bullied by their parents. You see parents shouting or being aggressive with their children. They are angry people. I can understand why if you were raised by parents you might want to do something else, but simply not setting boundaries for children is a disaster. Children don't want to make adult decisions - adults that let them are letting them down.

Children are out under so much pressure - National Curriculum has squeezed out the less academic or creative subjects . This isn’t Teachers fault - it’s a Government issue. Classes are too big, add staffing cuts and poor staff retention, employing brand new staff instead of experienced- (cheaper)lack of Subject Specialists (as they can earn more elsewhere- then really it’s no surprise the system is failing .
Look at other countries like Sweden for example, and compare with China where the level of child suicide is high

It’s not all down to teachers. Kids have shorter concentration spans due to phone use. There are also TikToks encouraging kids to misbehave.