Is behaviour out of control in a lot of schools?

[Sophie12319]

Not sure whether to move DD (10) to another school. Everyday she's coming home saying she can't learn as there are a group of boys who throw stuff about the classroom, shout out when the teacher is talking, walk about the classroom in lesson. She has said teacher has sent them to headteacher in the past but it carries on.

This is not a teacher bashing thread btw (in fact, I have the upmost respect for DD's teacher as I have seen the boys behaviour at the school gate and I don't know how she does a whole day), maybe more of a parent bashing of why some parents let their kids behave like this?

Anyway, back to the point of thread, I spoke to my sister about moving her to which she said there's no point as he DS' school is the same.
Feel a bit hopeless as I feel DD's education is being ruined! I've emailed the school before about their behaviour but I feel at a loss!

I had to move my ds to a private school due to classroom behaviour. He wasn’t learning anything, the teacher basically spent all their time keeping the kids from hurting each other.

I tend to agree with this to a large extent, although the parental lack of discipline in homes also feeds into it. I think it would be possible theoretically to manage discipline in a way that was effective.

But it's not just about excluding really violent kids. It's about expecting an orderly, well behaved class and taking appropriate measures to correct it even when the bad behavior doesn't rise to stabbing or throwing things or whatever. You will never get self-regulating kids if you aren't starting with the small stuff, at the beginning. That's where it is simple, baby steps, once you get to extreme beahviors it's going to be difficult for kids to make the leap.

But the way our culture thinks about behavior and children now, that's not how most people think about discipline. Right down to toddlers and even younger, (and weirdly this is also true with animal training) the philosophy seems to be that you will get good behavior if you love kids and give lots of positive reinforcement. There is no need to directly try and extinguish bad behaviors, and in fact doing so is thought to traumatize children.

Of course if you don't do this what you end up with is children with little capacity for self-regulation.

It's true schools aren't really allowed to do this effectively, even where there is a will, but many school managers and even teachers are influenced by this dominant cultural message. They, like many parents, may struggle to be consistently holding kids to higher expectations of behavior, because it seems wrong. And we no longer know intuitively what it looks like either, which is why when we go outside our culture to a place like France and see kids who have an overall higher level of self-regulation, it seems weird and magical.

Just as a note, this parenting approach now seems to dominate throughout the English-speaking west, and they are seeing similar issues in schools. It's not just a UK thing, so I would say while issues like staffing exacerbate it, that's not the main cause. The real thing to explore is this cultural attitude around teaching kids, behavior expectations, how people think kids learn, and so on. There are some very odd underlying assumptions around children having a kind of naturalistic goodness that will emerge so long as you let it do so freely. And very little understanding about how we learn good habits, and that these are actually very freeing and empowering once you have them.

It's appauling in most tbh.
I've been a tea her for many years in different schools. It would make your toes curl

Im not a teacher ( hats off to you all) but i am a parent of 3 Primary school children.

Im in an upper class ( hate this term but just trying to give context) area with upper class families with "respected jobs and family lives" and let me tell you most of the parents are absolutely hellish to deal with ESPECIALLY boy mums.

First hand ive dealt with parents that when even faced with undeniable evidence take zero accountability for their darling childs actions.

My daughter was chased and cornered in a bathroom by a group of around 20 boys threatening to batter her, the ringleaders mum took zero accountability when challenged by the school and me.

@Rudderneck Thank you so much for a very insightful and well articulated post on that explains what I also believe is the real problem.

Sadly, out of control behavior is not just limited to schools. If you looked at the news yesterday, school children descending on Southend yesterday to intentionally cause trouble, and it was arranged through socia media. Our future work force/management/Government are doomed. I'm glad I won't be part of the workforce when they are in charge.

I agree, but it's not even limited to children. A lot of adults have no respect for laws/rules either, and are allowed to get away with it because the police can't be arsed and everyone else is scared of repercussions if they challenge. Then there's billions of pounds of tax uncollected because of the black economy, cash in hand work, vat/duty evasion, etc., and likewise HMRC are too incompetent to clamp down on it. People park where they like because wardens don't enforce, same with driving through red traffic lights, using hand held mobiles whilst driving etc. We're seeing a collapse in behaviour across all age groups and until we get a return to proper enforcement, it'll just get worse.

I worked in a primary school for 12 years, I left 10 years ago because I was fed up with 4 year olds telling me what to do and speaking to me so rudely!
Discipline disappeared from schools years before Covid hit, so no people should not blame Covid!

‘It takes a village to raise a child’

And a local McDonalds has just banned Burgess Hill Academy from their premises until further notice for continuous foul, abusive and stupid behaviour.
All 1,086 of them. And a lot of locals are delighted, because it’s not OK to behave like a horde of screeching barbarians for fun.

I knew someone was going to say this. I've been in a school where the English teacher didn't know the difference between an adjective and adverb. We have many, many people who come out of our school systems with grammar like this, but we don't blame all schools for it. Plus, presumably you understood the post so didn't actually need to make a snide comment?

My DD14 is on half term. She goes to an girls private school because the local secondary is like Lord of the Flies. The local school hasn't broken up yet.

She had a friend over for the day so they were in town, as I dropped them off she said she'd be home before 3 because she didn't want to be in town when the school finishes.

That's how bad it is.

I'd have McDonalds close in my town if I could. It attracts feral kids and is a meet up point for their pointless clashes over postcodes, schools or other teenage rubbish. As it is, the shopping mall has a dispersal order to deal with teenage idiocy as there was a riot there a few months back and police injured.

I have a friend who is a teacher who currently works in different schools and colleges in London through agencies.

She desperately wants to leave the profession and can't face a full time permanent post, so she is doing supply teaching and private tutoring while she tries to move into a new sector.

The stories she tells me are horrendous. She got her tires slashed in one school, received racist abuse on many occasions from kids, last week one of the kids threaten to slap her...

Management is often useless at supporting teacher.

I was so shocked by what she has to put with.

I wonder if this has a lot to do with parents failing to teach their kids to respect others and not only think about their rights and a general lack of discipline and sense of accountability from people these days.

I had this reaction too, my DD was having some low level behaviour (stuff like not listening when the teacher was talking) and she was trying to complain to me that she was being told off for "nothing" so I spoke to the teacher in front of DD and told her that I fully supported any sanctions that were given for that sort of behaviour and the teacher looked really quite shocked and profusely thanked me for the support. I was in turn shocked by her shock 😂 it's like it's not normal to support the teachers anymore, I think she assumed I was going to complain to her

It's that bad in DC secondary and I do think weak leadership and covid have contributed and made it worse and yes I suspect some parenting trends are also an issue. It's not fair on the vast majority of teens in the school or teachers.

Though I've had PP issues as well kids with SEN falling behind not getting support and starting to hate school - we were "luckier" in that I could delay returning to work and found teachers/parents on here who pointed us in direction of help was hard few years and everyone forgets that work and its toll.

We always supported the school till last year when we had a succession of allegations against DS than turned out to be lies - not be teachers but support staff and SLT mistaken identity and outright lies - slip ups at first alerted us then later us asking questions before dealing with DS. We were then The Problem - as we were asking questions and often having them backtrack and we were not automatically supporting them as we had previously due to their lies eroding our trust.

Only other time we've been The Problem was with an NHS service because we complained and had proof of lies and negligence - and while we were believed and it was dealt with from then on we were The Problem and treated as such.

I think weak management not supporting staff fuels a close rank and a us vs then attitude which causes more problems as finger pointing starts.

Teachers are surprised when parents are supportive because the majority aren't.

They either
Complain that school policies about behaviour and homework contravene their child's human rights
Argue that their child is innocent and that teacher is making it up or hates their child
Don't care and don't respond
Spend their life moaning about the school on Facebook

What they never seem to grasp is that their child behaving and doing their work will lead to the best outcomes for their child.

It is also true that many have no control at home and give in for a quiet life. The child knows their parent will not support the school as they can't cope with the fallout when they do.

This year 7 are by far the worst I have encountered in 18 years of teaching.
In particular 2 boys spend their time swearing at teachers and failing to follow any instructions. 1 has SEN but the other doesn’t however I’m really not convinced that him constantly calling other children and teachers ‘c*’ and ‘f**ing spastics’ is related to sen. The parents blame the school for being too strict. Additionally the HOY says the boys are very sensitive and just need lots of praise. Many teachers are making plans to leave…..

What will happen when this current cohort enters the world of work, I wonder?

This thread is so depressing but so true. I’ve been working in a school in a deprived area for years and it’s always been challenging but it’s crazy now, the swearing, attacking staff, absconding. Parent complaints over ever little thing is also so utterly common and so petty. It feels like a breakdown between some families and school leading to zero support. And don’t get me started at the lack of any kind of external support for children. Meanwhile the demands from above get worse, performance related nonsense. I want to leave. First time I’ve ever wanted out as I truly have always loved my job. I’m far from alone.

It's so sad for the kids who do want to learn. It's a pity they can't be separated into learners and non- learners, but of course it would need more staff and the troublemakers' parents would object ( if they could be arsed to do anything at all). I used to teach high school, though not in the UK. You couldn't pay me enough to teach here.

Do you think they will manage to get a job? Their competition will be AI and companies do not pay people just to be there. Everyone knew kids like this at school. They were wasters. Self employment or nothing

It would be good to take some of the decision making away from headteachers about behaviour. And make some discipline Independent of parents and what they want. If parents don't like a schools attitude to discipline they can withdraw their children from school on advice. It would be possible to change the law and OFSTED to do this, and it would mean families with problem children got intervention away from mainstream education. I haven't seen anything on this thread that suggests this is more than a minority; schools are communities. If parents don't turn up, don't participate, don't support school decisions, then let inferences be drawn from that and negative ones at that. Build systems that support teachers making decisions rather than children making decisions for the whole class.

Maybe parents should be more vocal on the lack of discipline in schools.
Contact Heads, CEO of Academy Trusts, Local Authority, MPs, Secretary of State for Education and the media.
Not attaching blame on individuals but demanding a situation that allows those who want to learn to be given a chance to learn.
Back up and support decipline and staff.
Most of us only get one chance of education.
A friend who is a member of the SLT in a secondary school in the leafy home counties commented on the new unit being built on their playing field for those who have SEMH. She said that really they had that many children facing SEN, disruptive behaviour, trauma and /or disruptive home lives that the unit should be used for those for those who are muddling along putting up with all the chaos caused by others.
This is not a socially deprived area, high parental employment.

This is a problem in ‘institutions’.
Everyone is so institutionalised…
It’s all too easy to become The Problem if you dare to question the way things are ‘done’.