Is behaviour out of control in a lot of schools?

[Sophie12319]

Not sure whether to move DD (10) to another school. Everyday she's coming home saying she can't learn as there are a group of boys who throw stuff about the classroom, shout out when the teacher is talking, walk about the classroom in lesson. She has said teacher has sent them to headteacher in the past but it carries on.

This is not a teacher bashing thread btw (in fact, I have the upmost respect for DD's teacher as I have seen the boys behaviour at the school gate and I don't know how she does a whole day), maybe more of a parent bashing of why some parents let their kids behave like this?

Anyway, back to the point of thread, I spoke to my sister about moving her to which she said there's no point as he DS' school is the same.
Feel a bit hopeless as I feel DD's education is being ruined! I've emailed the school before about their behaviour but I feel at a loss!

I think there’s just something fundamentally wrong with the education system in the uk toddy.
It’s so easy to start apportioning blame to parents, to kids, to teachers and leadership. We’ll just go round in circles. As this thread has.

It all just needs a huge shake up.
Problems existed pre covid but since the pandemic something has shifted.
It just seems to me it’s not working anymore and something needs to change.

This is what parents and teachers should be fighting for. For a better system for everyone. It feels like it’s becoming almost an ‘us V them’ thing which is crazy! Stand together and fight for something better for all!

And yet, over on the ‘private versus state’ education thread, posters are vociferously attacking people for wanting to pay their way out of this absolute shit show. Beggars belief!

I've just left my job at a primary after 10 years, behaviour is worse than ever. Staffing is worse than ever. Behaviour management does not exist and what bit they do have doesn't work. Support for staff doesn't exist. Support for other children watching children destroy classrooms/hit, swear and physically assault staff isn't there. If children witnessed this behaviour in a home environment they would be removed!
There will be schools out there that are slightly better than others However you will never know the extent of it unless you're on the otherside of the classroom door. What your dd is describing is probably only 25% of what actually goes on. Kids are that used to others kicking off in the classroom that it doesn't occur to them to tell their parents!

@CynthiaRothrock that must make school a terrifying experience for many children then! Does this not have a massive knock-on effect to their mental health in general?

@Sophie12319 , it seems this is tragically common. Who shall we blame?
I blame useless parenting.

Oh my god I needed this thread, was talking to two dses the other day (secondary school) and they didn’t think it was a big deal that I’ve heard of 5 boys, totally different circumstances, different classes being suspended, this year! I was saying ‘but it’s only October!’ I was asking was it a boy school thing and they were offended, but we had 2 girls suspended in the entire 6 years I was in secondary, and they were known bullies! And horrifically ironically two week ago was anti bullying week, speakers in etc and a friend rang to say her son had been taunted by a group and nobody stepped in to help, and he’s the loveliest guy but so shy, I can’t imagine how it’s impacted him

HNRFT but my children went to Grammar school and the boys school was brilliant and the teachers had full control of the boys. Mutual respect by teachers and boys.
The girls school were definitely harder for the teachers to rein the girls in ! But they eventually matured and wanted to achieve.
I do think that schools that have high academic expectations tend to not have the problems than other schools in my experience.

A lot of the decision making is out of headteachers' hands.
It's ridiculously hard to exclude a pupil, the paperwork is extensive plus you have to exclude a certain number of times before it's permanent. And even then you can end up having them back. Believe me if we could just kick them out of school we would.
There's not enough staff to supervise children out of class and not enough pastoral support or training for existing staff.
Parents are one of the worst aspects- constantly having to spend precious time looking at the CCTV to prove their little angel has behaved badly because god forbid they accept your word (which is based on spending precious time questioning all parties involved and listening to a hundred different stories to try and find the truth).
Some of my days are like an episode of Line of fucking Duty!

It sounds like parents who have SEN children with behavioural problems in terms of conduct expect that to be accommodating persistently in mainstream school. SEN does not mean by itself that there should be separation from mainstream classes, but with conduct and behavioural problems then it should mean a ticket out of mainstream school. That is presumably better for unmet needs, and better for the other children.

Very strict behavioural requirements for everyone from the outset would also help.

Anyway, I wonder what teachers themselves would want and what it would take for them to stay? So many are leaving or have left already. When you have that situation it is time to listen to what they need in terms of addressing this problem.

Teachers want sufficient support for SEN they have in their schools, so we are not using existing TAs (which takes them away from their actual job of supporting the class, which affects children's progress and attainment) or scrambling for supply, which are often absolute rubbish.
There needs to be more SEN provision, whether that's actual SEN schools or units in mainstream that are properly staffed.
In my experience though, the majority of behaviour issues we have are not from SEN children. They are children whose parents are shit and don't support the school. And not just families from sterotypial demographics. The behaviour policy can only do so much.

So what do you do about the latter category? I mean in an ideal world, what do you do about unsupportive parents and badly behaved kids? Two strikes and you are out? No return to school after that? Online provision given to meet the duty to educate and keep the mainstream going?

Some schools have unbelievably tough discipline ie particular free schools. I have been in schools where you can hear a pin drop. All places with very engaged parents.

Paul Dix restorative behaviour fad that has swept through schools in the past few years really hasn't helped. Restorative conversations might work in theory but not when teachers are already trying to manage a class of multiple needs they can't really spare ten minutes in the middle of a lesson to have a restorative conversation with Fred who may have thrown a chair and sworn at the teacher because he has attachment issues stemming from early childhood or may have done it because he is an obnoxious little sod.

If the government really wants trauma in childhood to be addressed, this needs funding for proper staff and resources, not additional things for already overstretched school staff to manage.

I'm a primary school teacher. And while I wouldn't say that overall behaviour has got worse, I'd say that there ARE more kids coming into mainstream school with significant and unsupported behavioural and SEN needs.
I feel there there is less early involvement from professionals, to either get these kids into a good enough place to manage mainstream, or they are not being filtered off into alternative provision soon enough.
There is also less money in schools to pay for the additional staff required to support these kids.

There are kids in primary classrooms today, who, 10 years ago, would have had a 1:1 support without a thought, who today, get absolutely nothing and are left to be managed by the class teacher who has 29 other kids to deal with.

It’s so simplistic and naive to ‘blame shitty parenting’.

This is not a black and white issue!

We have to take into account the state of the education system and the fact it’s underfunded, teachers are burnt out, the curriculum is outdated and boring, it puts kids under huge pressure to pass tests and little else, buildings are crumbling, attendance is down a lot since covid not to mention the state of the UK in general.

In case it’s passed people by there is a COL crisis. Families are on the breadline and desperate. The Tories have stripped family and health services steadily over the last decade or so. Mental health isn’t good in adults or children.

PLEASE can we have this conversation without apportioning blame for EVERYTHING on parents 🙏

the curriculum is outdated and boring

I’m not sure about this. In what way is it outdated? Maths, for example, is always going to be maths, and the bottom line is that it’s boring for many, many children. The material can’t be made that different. Kids need to cope with being bored, to some extent. The need to ‘entertain’ in the name of education is actually quite outdated pedagogy.

Honestly I think there’s a number of issues but

• parents that tolerate backchat, rudeness and bad behaviour mean that children come into class expecting the same to be acceptable. I’ve lost count of the number of children who have been very very rude to me as a staff member. They are allowed to get away with it at home.
• a minority of parents who just don’t care - I’ve been told ‘when x is at school she’s your problem’ - after throwing furniture around.
• more children spending more time on screens, meaning they have shorter attention spans, and less able to cope with sitting and listening.
• a lack of outdoors / playtime. It’s cut to the bone in primary because we have so much to fit it. Kids find it hard to concentrate if they haven’t run energy off at break
• attendance - every class has the one kid who is never in. When they are in, they haven’t a clue what they are meant to be doing so become more and more disruptive
• bloody Paul Dix load of rubbish, worst thing to happen to schools.

@FrenchFancie
Agree. Very sensible post.

I have been a teacher for 18 years and behaviour is worse now than it's ever been. I work in a lovely village school in an affluent area but even there we have had a huge increase in bad behaviour. Inclusion is party to do with it, shutting down SEN schools to save money but with no provision/support/staff provided in main stream schools and what was there has been eroded over the years so next to no learning support.

There was been a huge shift and now 'all behaviour is communication' is seen as widely accepted. We now don't have a school wide behaviour policy, it's called a 'relationships policy' no consequences or support for bad behaviour. In fact it's the children who do behave badly that are usually rewarded in some way.

It's extremely frustrating both as a teacher and parent to see the destruction that is being done. Also many parents are not supportive of the school and immediately jump to their child's defense and many are so busy with work that they don't seem to have the same grip on things at home!

Son's school the other day (y10) - a boy insulted a girl in class, called her a 'slut' or something, she lashed out at him, he punched her back, right in the mouth, split her lip open, blood everywhere, then ripped a chunk out of her hair at the roots. The teacher who tried to get between them was also punched. Boy suspended but no police involvement afaik.

I went to a fairly rough secondary 30-40 years ago but I never witnessed anything on that scale, I have to say - no boys hitting girls or teachers getting whacked.

It did shock me, but perhaps it is becoming more common?

No of course that is disgusting and in a world that is not insane he would be expelled immediately.

I mean if he did that to an adult that would be actual bodily harm and a Crown Court appearance. I hope her family report it to the police. That is very serious.

But it is important.

I know that English teachers in schools are not infallible.

The last place I worked would reject job applications which had spelling mistakes or poor grammar. It didn't matter what their qualifications were. If they could not provide reports in proper English they were no asset to the company. It gave a bad impression to people in the other countries we were dealing with whose spelling and grammar were better than someone educated in the UK. People were ruling themselves out by not even qualifying for an interview.

Disengaged parents are such a large part of the problem. Parents who think their child’s bad behaviour at school is not their problem, they see it as none of their business and don’t want to know!
Last week at ds school two boys pulled down another boy’s trousers and underwear and exposed his genitals in the playground in front of a group of girls. They are year 10, so aged 14/15. The deputy head rang both sets of parents, one set refused to answer the calls, ignored voicemails and emails.
Both boys received one day of isolation lessons 🙄

This in spades.

From a selfish point of view, if my youngest wasn't in 6th form, I'd seriously consider home schooling. Behaviour in my relatively 'nice' middle (soon to become secondary) school is appalling and getting worse. So many parents back their childs' terrible behaviour and then you have the gorgeous kids who just want to learn, who have their lessons constantly disrupted. It's shocking and depressing.

I was asked (by my Head) to apologise to a child last week for giving them a detention for telling me to fuck off in a lesson, because his mum said he couldn't help it because he has ADHD. I refused and told my Head that ADHD does not make a child behave in a completely unpleasant way. She said that 'in the interest of both parties' I should apologise. Absolutely not. I know she needs me more than I need this job.

I think it does have a knock on effect. The see violence as the norm. And I belive it effects the behaviour of the 'good' children too. I know the class my dd was in (in the school I worked in) affected her. She couldn't understand why I would tell her off for some thing small (ie answering back etc) but it's ok for Jimmy to punch the teacher and not get punished.