Is behaviour out of control in a lot of schools?

[Sophie12319]

Not sure whether to move DD (10) to another school. Everyday she's coming home saying she can't learn as there are a group of boys who throw stuff about the classroom, shout out when the teacher is talking, walk about the classroom in lesson. She has said teacher has sent them to headteacher in the past but it carries on.

This is not a teacher bashing thread btw (in fact, I have the upmost respect for DD's teacher as I have seen the boys behaviour at the school gate and I don't know how she does a whole day), maybe more of a parent bashing of why some parents let their kids behave like this?

Anyway, back to the point of thread, I spoke to my sister about moving her to which she said there's no point as he DS' school is the same.
Feel a bit hopeless as I feel DD's education is being ruined! I've emailed the school before about their behaviour but I feel at a loss!

And to be clear, my posts are in no way teacher bashing.
The teachers at my children’s schools are fantastic…. They’re just in an awful
situation and I have no idea what the answer is. They can’t seem to permanently exclude the children and there is no money for extra support and no other school places that would better suit them.

I think it's the issue about additional needs. I understand parents want to be supportive of the wider cohort. But seriously, you are doing down your own children if you don't complain en masse because the Head will pretend it is all fine. Don't blame the individual teachers, but start getting very loud about children that persistently disrupt lessons. It's your own children that are being screwed by this "we can handle it/pretend it didn't happen" attitude.

It’s totally all geared towards the needs of the disruptive child, and the effect on the other kids is 100% overlooked. Every time. That’s what really annoys me.

I agree don't let Heads, especially Academy Heads sweep it under the carpet.

I agree. But parents have to complain about it as a class. Otherwise institutionally you and all the other parents of the children affected are saying "ok". That is what school leaders will say, "no one told me". These people care about their jobs and the reputation of their school. If those start to suffer, then ime they move quickly.

Yes god forbid learning is made a bit fun!

If you read my post, this isn’t in place for my DC, this was a method that teacher used in previous years, and continued to use. I’m assuming, because she found it worked for her classes at the time!

No one said learning shouldn't be enjoyable. I am simply saying that getting a class dancing around in the middle of a lesson could interrupt learning.

As mentioned it’s something the teacher has been doing for years, and it was Y2. Infants. I’m not one to question teachers’ methods when the whole class seem to love them.

I’m hiding this thread, as the parent of SEN DC it’s quite upsetting the amount of ableism that’s clearly around. My son’s desk mate is extremely bossy and unkind to him, should I recruit the other 28 parents en masse to complain about that?! Every child has the potential to disrupt learning.

100%

It's not ableism to discuss the effect children with additional needs have on a mainstream class when there is no funding or support available.
If your child has a problem with a child in his class by all means go in and complain, but stop the whataboutery.

I think discipline in schools is poor now and schools over involve parents. I’ve had phone calls about any number of minor things - DS sold another kid a bag of sweets, DS walked the wrong way on the one way system - when I was at secondary a phone call home was for when you had done something really bad and the very idea of it made you shit yourself. Now they communicate about every trivial thing. I understand there is an argument about you as a parent can’t expect the school to manage poor behaviour and compensate for your parenting - but I think by over involving parents you do then open up this over involvement / defensiveness. There is also a heavy reliance on isolation as a punishment. When I was at secondary it was again rare to be taken out of lessons and you would normally get stuck in an empty office and kept away from your friends. At my son’s school they have an isolation unit managed by a full time member of staff. There is a discipline framework and a scale of behaviour points and it’s all incredibly punitive. Teachers can only operate within this framework. SEN provision is practically non existent- my younger DS has ADHD (diagnosed before secondary and medicated) and it has taken two years for me to talk to a SENCO about arrangements for him taking tests and having extra time, despite having contacted them before he even started there and sharing reports from educational psychologist etc.

I also think the over communication with parents discourages children from taking responsibility. When I was a teenager, when I was at school, I had to abide by their rules and if I got in trouble I had to sort it myself. One of the few times I got a phone call home for any of the dicking about I did, was when I got caught smoking. I was scared to go home that day! But everything else was on me. If I got lunchtime detention, my parents didn’t get told about it via an app.

This thread should be read in conjunction with the other thread running about how feral children have turned out.

I’m also fed up with conversations such as this one being shut down by cries of SEN. There is a lot of poor behaviour that is being hidden behind SEN with detrimental effects for everyone.

@freespirit333 thank you for demonstrating part of the issue.
As others have said, there is no ableism demonstrated on this thread that I’ve seen. My frustration is that the needs of 1 child seem to trump the needs and safety of the majority of the class….Under the guise of inclusion.
Teachers are so scared of being called out on not being inclusive, by parents, or Ofsted that they lose sight of the bigger picture.

Some parents of SEN children are so caught up in in the issues of their little darling that they make excuses, and some don’t seem to care the effect that they have on the other 29 children. This is not directed at you @freespirit333 In our school anyway, they are very vocal that their child’s needs are not being fully met, they’re not getting this or that….. they forget the terror (and pain) they inflict on the other children and their missed opportunities as the teachers are so busy with the 1 or 2. When politely reminded that all children are suffering, it was a shock to them.

Shock.. not all children suit mainstream. But, there are limited other places.

I also do agree that some poor parenting is hidden behind sen diagnoses. Not all children with a sen need have poor behaviour (and sadly these compliant, quiet children are even worse affected by the limited resources).

To me the push on inclusion was only ever a cost cutting exercise by the government… ‘we’ll close the expensive special schools and schools can deal with the children within mainstream. Funding cut, but they’ll sort it as we’ll target them on inclusion’ .
Just see how many MPs children are educated in the state sector….they don’t care!

‘To me the push on inclusion was only ever a cost cutting exercise by the government… ‘we’ll close the expensive special schools and schools can deal with the children within mainstream. Funding cut, but they’ll sort it as we’ll target them on inclusion’

1000 times this!

I fully believe in trying to be as inclusive as possible, but when being inclusive is at the detriment of all the other children in the classroom we have to take stock.

Parents should be shouting about this from the rooftops! It’s simple, some children are not coping in mainstream education and no one is winning from them being there except the government and their constant cutting of services.

I think kids behaviour is worse in general I see it in my own family, not bad kids at all and can be very sweet but also so badly behaved often times in a way kids never used to be. I don't know why but its very sad because the children are obviously unhappy like that also, its like they really struggle to regulate themselves emotionally and so act out as a release. I don't know what the cause is as they all have good parents and loving homes and family.

I do have a friend who insists on having her severely learning disabled child in a mainstream school. She isn't naughty at all but she cannot cope with the classroom environment and ends up being very disruptive by wondering around the classroom during lessons, going to the teacher for hugs while she is trying to teach, soiling herself daily and having meltdowns.

Her view is that her child will have the best outcomes by being in a mainstream school as in specialist schools it is they go at the pace of the child with the most severe disabilities who get all the attention and so that would hold her child back. Its like she doesn't see that this is exactly the impact her child is having on the rest of her classmates. The school have had multiple meetings with her and obviously feel that the child isn't suited to the school but my friend only wants what is best for her kid and says that she is actually learning a lot by being in that class.

Its very sad and I don't know what the answer is better provision for specialist schools perhaps so all children get the best possible outcome.

I had this happen to me numerous times as a teacher, especially as an NQT. The students who were most disruptive got wise to the fact you (obviously) couldn’t physically remove them from the room, so I’d have to call SLT to come and get them. Then they’d still refuse to move, and we’d all have to go and stand in the corridor while SLT dealt with it.

I had one particularly disruptive and unpleasantly behaved student insist to his mum that I was bullying him. Her face when she came into school all guns blazing was a picture when she saw me - young, quiet, female NQT bullying her 15yo son? 🤷🏻‍♀️

Other (what I consider to be) lower level incidents included having a chair thrown at me, general talking back, low-level disrespect, students smirking when I spoke to them etc. It was nowhere near all of them, and some of them were genuinely lovely to teach, but there was a huge amount of bad behaviour and disruption in what was considered a good school.

The headteacher was entirely unsupportive and wasn’t well liked among the staff because she herself had a very condescending attitude towards staff.

It was only because I had a really supportive HoY and HoD that I lasted any longer, but I moved into FE shortly afterwards and found that infinitely better in terms of behaviour. The students were actually engaged and wanted to be there.

I’m not sure where this ends or what the solution is, because it’s so pervasive and seems to stem from attitudes at home and parents’ perception that teachers are out to get their kids or are somehow working against parents. I think it’s one of those issues that has come about relatively quickly (maybe in the last 15-20 years?) but will take a lot longer to fix.

Totally agree with you about the punitive behaviour systems. In my last secondary school, there was a two-strike behaviour system, after which students were to be sent to the isolation room. It just doesn’t work - it does nothing to resolve the behaviour or work out why it’s happening, and latterly it was failing to remove disruptive students from classrooms too, as they’d just refuse to go.

These draconian, one-size-is-meant-to-fit-all policies are also part of the problem, I think.

To where?
For how long?
Who will supervise them?
Who will provide the education to which they are legally entitled?

Honestly, school staff know this is what needs to happen but as there is no process or funding for the answers to the above questions…

cardibach

tbh myself and most of my fellow teachers are at the point where we just don’t care about that answers to those questions.
if children are going to be violent, abusive and disruptive and stop other kids ever being able to learn then imo they have forfeited their right to an education.
Most of them have no interest in learning at all and basically go to school with the intention of being as disruptive as possible.
and for those talking about SEN kids - excluding the new trend for adhd/ASD combinations (who need alternative provision in many cases) it is rarely the kids with additional needs who cause the problems, it is them who suffer most as the lack of structure and noise often stops them learning at all.

Do behavioural units still exist in schools?

Honestly, it is because they lack real affection and kindness from their parents. That involves helping children, not just telling them they are able to do anything, or teachers are wrong, or school is waste of time. Children do know this, and they can become very hardened by it. They are often bullied at home by their parents.

It’s shocking in all schools that I know. I’ve recently retired from teaching in my late 50s, as the job was making me ill — mainly via poor pupil behaviour and few sanctions. My younger friends and colleagues are literally counting they days until they can change career or reach retirement age.

Some parents just can't be bothered to teach their children to behave. I work with children under 4 and they don't listen, run round the room, scream at staff, destroy things. We talk to the parents who admit their children do the same at home but also that no consequence are ever applied.
So we fight a losing battle.
I've lost my love of the work because we never get backed by parents or senior managers. So yeah I can see it being worse the older they get.