Is behaviour out of control in a lot of schools?

[Sophie12319]

Not sure whether to move DD (10) to another school. Everyday she's coming home saying she can't learn as there are a group of boys who throw stuff about the classroom, shout out when the teacher is talking, walk about the classroom in lesson. She has said teacher has sent them to headteacher in the past but it carries on.

This is not a teacher bashing thread btw (in fact, I have the upmost respect for DD's teacher as I have seen the boys behaviour at the school gate and I don't know how she does a whole day), maybe more of a parent bashing of why some parents let their kids behave like this?

Anyway, back to the point of thread, I spoke to my sister about moving her to which she said there's no point as he DS' school is the same.
Feel a bit hopeless as I feel DD's education is being ruined! I've emailed the school before about their behaviour but I feel at a loss!

Agreed

The system isn't fit for teaching in today's society. The curriculum not suited to half our learners and not enough movement/freedom in primary teaching too.

A quote from the other thread "School now sets up almost half (ie everyone below average) to fail. Imagine being forced to turn up to a job everyday where you can't possibly succeed, what would your mood/temper be like?" Illustrates this exactly.

The quote was from @DotandTime on the school budget cuts thread.

Its basically setting kids up to fail from all angles. Failing buildings,losing experienced staff, a curriculum not fit for use and all the associated issues kids have these days.

A quote from the other thread "School now sets up almost half (ie everyone below average) to fail. Imagine being forced to turn up to a job everyday where you can't possibly succeed, what would your mood/temper be like?" Illustrates this exactly.

I do agree with this. In the old days, children knew what they were achieving (eg 3a, 4b etc) Now they know what they are not (working towards the expected standard - which is an improvement on below the expected standard!)

But it doesn't explain why the majority of bad behaviour in my school comes from those who are achieving the expected standard. Sometimes GD children. And it's not because they're bored. Plenty of children manage to be WA and GD without being badly behaved.

But I do think that some of the feedback is counterproductive. Yeah, I mean you did alright but to be better you need to... they're always being told that they're not quite good enough however well they do.

This is my child.

Hates school, I've resorted to financialy bribes to get him to go. He gets paid £1 a day plus 20p for breakfast club attendance as "overtime" 🤦🏻‍♀️

My child is 9 with the reading age of age 3-4 due to additional learning needs, severe dyslexia.but he excels in mathematics, and is bright, he can verbally articulate and explain what he has learnt, he just simply can't write it down. It's so very sad.

He receives hardly any support due to "budgets" sits lost and frustrated, he is "sadly" also very aware of how far behind he is, labels himself a "weirdo" has no self confidence or self worth in the school setting.

He hates it there, every day is a battle to get him in. His behaviour is "ok" on the whole but getting him through the door is the mission. He knows he's failing and has now been left behind to rot in a system that cannot financially adapt to him.

I've also sadly now moved into self preservation mode as I don't want a criminal record for poor attendance, so every morning I wake up to a battle, drag my child screaming and crying to go somewhere he hates. He leaves every day in tears, unable to cope. But I don't want a criminal record so in to school he must go, my child's welfare has taken a back seat just so I cover my arse, and I feel so guilty, worn down and exhausted from it. I have 7 years left of this also 😭.

I sometimes sit and think if I died tomorrow this would all be over. All it would take is a failed glance crossing the road and a bus to hit me, and this torture would be over. 😳

Totally agree. So much blame being placed on this thread and no thought to the environment that we are placing our young people in. The system is completely outdated for today’s children (I say this as a teacher).
Those asking ‘but what has changed?’, the world has changed. Children are being raised in a world today that none of us could have imagined just 20-30 years ago.
They are what I call ‘digital natives’. One of the big issues is see (apart from the others outlined here which I don’t disagree with) is that what we are trying to teach children today is largely meaningless. They can literally just google anything they can be taught or work it out on a phone calculator. They’re being forced to learn outdated stuff and then tested on it to prove their ‘intellect’. They are pushing back against it all. We need a reinvention of the concept f school.

I’m SO sorry to hear this. What a crazy world we live in. You must be so very upset by all this 😔 Have you thought about home education for him? (I’m a teacher who took my own DC out to home educate).

If I wasn't a young widow, working 40+ hours a week to financially survive, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But the bottom line is, I need to work, I need the money.

I am wrapped with guilt daily. I have been known to just sit in my car and cry through exhaustion and guilt after school drop offs, for pick ups then I get a guy wrenching anxiety, a feeling of fear, how will today have gone? will it have been any better?

But I'm sorry to say the storm rages on and there's no clearing ahead.

I'm lucky that overall as sad, depressed, angry and frustrated that he is, he just sits quietly bottling it all up. However the cork pops each evening with me, I got the brunt. Before I have literally sat outside his bedroom door in the night, listening to him sob and cry and talk to himself, calling himself stupid, and it truly utterly breaks my heart.

He's one of the wittiest, funniest, articulate, kindest of child's. But he's being destroyed and I haven't the money to pull us out of this spiral of sadness.

Are you a call handler? Just asking as I would love to do this sort of job! (Sorry to derail)

It sounds like a nightmarish situation. School can truly be the worst kind of environment for a lot of children. I’m really sorry. As his mum you must be at your wits end.
I understand what you’re saying about work. The only thing I can say is I do know a couple of single parents home educating and making it fit around work. Obviously these aren’t 9-5 jobs but part time roles, often running own businesses, that they do around their kids. How old is your son?

Sorry I don't mean to derail this thread, he's 9. Going into year 5 next year.

Best I've done to try and fill the gap is a private dyslexia tutor (but they ain't cheap) and also private play therapy and talk/family therapy, which also isn't cheap. I genuinely sometimes feel like I'm plugging holes on a sinking ship with regards to school, and the water is just rushing in and despite my best efforts, we are just stuck sinking.

The only bonus I have is I've managed to put him into sports which he excels at, and he loves mathematics. He also loves animals, the environment and the natural world.

So we befriended the local RSPB wildlife centre, because we were there all the time 😬😳 and the staff there adore him, so he spends much time there, they let him help garden, do activities with him and he thoroughly loves it. We go whenever we can and he has so much knowledge on wildlife and conservation. So it's boosting some confidence and giving him enjoyment in life outside of school hours. He comes alive there, he talks, learns and simply because nobody is asking him to write things down or read he really enjoys being there. We've been lucky on that front I'll admit.

Does DS have an EHCP? Have you considered EOTAS?

If DS can’t attend school because of his SEN/MH the LA have a duty to provide alternative arrangements. They often refuse or ignore you, but parents can force the LA to provide provision.

So we have an IDP (we are in Wales) it's getting amended next week with yet more school meetings. But every time I request more support like a one to one TA, or more support with learning to read and write, I get refused for budgeting reasons.

It's such a difficult one, all I want the school is to help me teach him reading and writing (basic skills) I'm not asking for anything else, but the answer is always no we can't.

I'm not a teacher, I could help some navigate the criminal justice system 🤣, but a teacher I am not, and I really don't know where to start with it, even if I tried, which I have and failed miserably. The English language is really difficult with all the different sounds and blending, I've no idea how it works to break it down and then add on severe dyslexia and I'm lost.

I'll have a look at the other things you suggested, and see if anything may be suitable for DS and me, to ask for next week. Thank you.

I don’t know whether you know, but SNAP Cymru offer a similar service for Wales to what IPSEA and SOSSEN offer in England. They have information on their website and an advice line.

Is the IDP maintained at a school level or by the LA? Have you looked at appealing?

What sanctions can you impose other than detentions? Exclusion from lessons? The naughtiest kids often don't care about that. Exclusion from school? Great - more time on the Xbox. Permanent exclusion? Difficult to do, takes a loooong time and lots of evidence and hoop-jumping, and kids often get back in on appeal. Even if you do manage to expel them, they go straight to another school amd cause the same problems.

It doesn't matter if they don't care about it. Schools need the show children that education is a privilege and that if they wish to have it they have to behave appropriately. If they won't then they will instantly leave the lesson. If it continues, yes: permanent exclusion. So that others who do actually want to learn can do so in peace. School is not social services, its job is to teach. If a child is preventing that, they need to be forced to leave. And they should be offered online lessons at home through internet schooling: their choice if they choose mot to engage with that. At the moment the system is set up to trash the education of those who wish to learn to try to benefit those who have no intention of ever doing so. That needs to be changed and the children who want to learn prioritised.

Except there's no evidence whatsoever that having separated parents affects discipline per se. Obviously someone with separated parents might have no discipline at one or other home if their parents are useless, the same as if their parents lived together. But I've not seen any evidence that a single parent can't discipline a child properly.

Exactly. So many offensive comments here with zero evidence to back them up. People who are useless single parents would undoubtedly have been useless parents in a couple as well. One has no causal relationship to the other.

It's not that a single parent can't discipline children, it's that some children of separated parents have suffered/are suffering trauma that makes getting through the day doubly difficult for them and that comes out in their behaviour.

School is not social services and neither is it a mental health service. If children are so badly affected by trauma that they cannot engage in education in a school setting without preventing other children having their education without disruption then those children need to stay out of school until CAMHS have treated them.

Oh hello. Still waiting for your apology for saying I was blaming single mums. When I didn’t even mention them. As I proved with my screenshot…

Oh hello. Still waiting for your apology for saying I was blaming single mums. When I didn’t even mention them. As I proved with my screenshot…

Your comments were clear and you were called out on them.

It's not that a single parent can't discipline children, it's that some children of separated parents have suffered/are suffering trauma that makes getting through the day doubly difficult for them and that comes out in their behaviour

Well, yes. As do plenty of children whose parents have not separated. And the vadt majority of the trauma resulting from having separated parents has been shown to be caused by step parents/ "blended families" etc, are parental animosity, not having separated parents per se. In situations where parents separate and co-parent amicably and don't inflict blended families/ move new partners into their children's homes there is no measurable difference between their outcomes and those of children living with both their mother and father in one house: separation itself isn't the problem, it is shitty parenting after that that is a problem. Just as shitty parenting is a problem even if you remain living with the child's other parent. The real cause of issues is shitty parenting.

Thanks for this. Shall keep it in mind and look into resources available.
Perhaps they'll be home schooling collectives for pupils who want to sit, listen and learn. Need to find areas where such communities are thriving.
It's a shame the education system isn't supportive of pupils like it should be.

Of course there were behavioural issues in previous school years but yes it does seem like there’s more right now. I find the school system very different now to 50 years ago. Children, finances, staff, curriculum, the school day, education standards are squeezed and under immense pressure to perform academically to exacting standards, leaving little flexibility for staff and schools to teach creatively (horticulture, a more practical science etc). In addition children with SEN previously had easier access to specialist schools. There just isn’t the funding now and these children have been forced into a highly pressured mainstream education which consistently fail them.

Historically a large majority of offenders in prison have a learning disability of some description. Anti social and low level criminal behaviours likely started in school days when poor behaviour was used to distract from the embarrassment of not being able to academically perform like others or navigate the school day. These children had unmet needs and their poor behaviour was communication. Today there’s still many children who need a diagnosis but fail to get one due to finances, waiting lists and lack of training. There’s also many children with high social anxiety post covid. Sadly even with a diagnosis there isn’t the funds or provision flexibility to meet individual needs.

Your question about angry children … well they clearly need a nurturing, confidence building provision/curriculum where they feel safe and happy, with accessible talking therapies/strong pastoral care if required. This requires thinking outside of the box, possibly offering more physical old fashioned crafts alongside modern day skills,

And what of the children who don't have unmet learning or emotional needs or a history of trauma and who simply interrupt you every 6 seconds because tiktok has turned their attention to that of a gnat? If you have not been in a classroom in the last 18 months, you have no idea how much of an issue giving all aged children unfettered access to phones has caused.