Is behaviour out of control in a lot of schools?

[Sophie12319]

Not sure whether to move DD (10) to another school. Everyday she's coming home saying she can't learn as there are a group of boys who throw stuff about the classroom, shout out when the teacher is talking, walk about the classroom in lesson. She has said teacher has sent them to headteacher in the past but it carries on.

This is not a teacher bashing thread btw (in fact, I have the upmost respect for DD's teacher as I have seen the boys behaviour at the school gate and I don't know how she does a whole day), maybe more of a parent bashing of why some parents let their kids behave like this?

Anyway, back to the point of thread, I spoke to my sister about moving her to which she said there's no point as he DS' school is the same.
Feel a bit hopeless as I feel DD's education is being ruined! I've emailed the school before about their behaviour but I feel at a loss!

@Comety

Interesting. The majority (and I really do mean the majority) of my children’s friends split their time between their mum/dad. They often have new partners and sometimes more children. My year 6 child will ask questions like “are they full siblings or half siblings?” Because it’s very normal for her friends to have multiple half siblings.

My own nieces and nephews have siblings that I even forget exist 🤦‍♀️. So families absolutely are more complex these days.

Year 8 are feral.

@x2boys

Agree. I have a 16 year old niece who went straight into the construction industry last year. She was not forced to remain in education.

@AgnestaVipers

My sons year 8. They were called the most immature year group the head has ever dealt with. Thankfully my son has been recognised for his level of maturity in comparison to some peers but overall he’s just so disheartened from school life. There are kids who will make teachers cry and he feels for them. He has a lot of empathy that seems to be missing in many.

Agree. So is it something children are eating that's affecting their behaviour? Lack of sleep? Screens? I hate to ask because I'm going to be flamed, but things going on at home? Lack of proper discipline at school? Being told too often that they are wonderful, so that they have an over developed sense of entitlement? Both parents working long hours (often necessary due to living costs) so children aren't getting enough attention, Covid and the isolation that went with it? Surely SOMETHING must be affecting the behaviour of so many children!

I'm really not being judgemental of schools or parents here - but if there's a major problem with behaviour in schools, surely we need to identify and deal with the cause or causes so we can address the problem.

It sounds like maybe people should make a legal commitment before having children together, and even stay together for the children's sake unless there's something extreme going on like domestic violence. If people are saying separated parents are one of the causes of the poor behaviour then that would be a responsible way to address it.

We've definitely seen a big change in the way parents support their DC.

It used to be mainly that parents felt firm boundaries were necessary but now they always want to be seen to be on DC's side.

There were always some parents who'd complain little Jonny couldn't have done what school said he'd done, but now we get a lot of parents who either don't think he was guilty, or agree he did it but don't think it was that bad or think the other child or the teacher got what they deserved and won't support or undermine whatever sanction school tries to put in place.

We're seeing the second generation from "broken" homes though and I don't think that helps. In my anecdotal experience some of this wanting to prove they're on the child's side stems from that.

I don't think separation alone causes it. Many separated parents do a great job. But parenting separately is hard to get to right and not everyone does. When it goes wrong it often results in a lot of childhood trauma.

Agree. So is it something children are eating that's affecting their behaviour? Lack of sleep? Screens? I hate to ask because I'm going to be flamed, but things going on at home? Lack of proper discipline at school? Being told too often that they are wonderful, so that they have an over developed sense of entitlement? Both parents working long hours (often necessary due to living costs) so children aren't getting enough attention, Covid and the isolation that went with it? Surely SOMETHING must be affecting the behaviour of so many children!

Most of those things to a certain extent. But nostly it's cultural imo. Society is less disciplinarian, less hierarchical and more individualistic. Even well-behaved kids are now brought up with much less automatic deference to adults and with much, much more awareness of their rights. They don't see why they should be made to do stuff they don't want to do, and they are not easily cowed into doing it. Plus they see bad role models everywhere (in the media and often in their own families).

Speaking as a full-time working single mum, I have no problem at all raising my son to be well behaved & decent.

He is infinitely better behaved, better educated and happier than if we had stayed with my ex.

Then the parents need to be told to piss off. If it's not horrible kids being pandered to it's useless parents.

Would never work on MN where people are told to leave their husbands over the most mundane reason. Obviously a lot of the time it's the right advice but it doesn't do much for the kids.

I don't think it is just separation and divorce, i think a lot is down to absent fathers or unknown fathers, blended families and all too often many half siblings with many dads. Children have so much to manage these days. The poor souls are pulled from one situation to another without any concern for their well being. I read today about one child in emergency foster care, they had 14 different siblings with just as many fathers. Can you imagine the chaos those children were living with. It is adults that mess children's lives up.

If people are saying separated parents are one of the causes of the poor behaviour

How much actual evidence is there of this though?

Again, completely anecdotally, I have found that children whose fathers have vanished seem to do better than those whose parents play tug of war with them.

Even in some families where everything appears amicable, the children feel very torn. Parents put the responsibility of choosing e.g. where they spend Christmas on the child, which causes enormous conflict for the children. Or mum tries to be happy that dad is taking them on an expensive holiday but the children know she's gutted really.

Re exclusion, that seems to happen quite often in my DS's inner city comp, It looks to me as if the kids get moved round from one school to another; I imagine the heads having meetings and doing some horse trading to decide who gets to take which kid ("I'll take Sally who threatened a teacher with a knife if you take jimmy who dealt drugs in the playground"). I guess the advantage is it gives the kids a fresh start away from the group of kids who egged them on. There seems to be a fair bit of movement!

I have to say that the tales my DS has told me about behaviour in his school do shock me and I do worry that having chosen a nurturing school as opposed to a strict disciplinary one was a mistake. He says some teachers just have the knack of controlling a class but many don't. In some subjects it sounds like he really doesn't learn anything at all. No idea what the answer is.

Yes. It's too simplistic to blame it on a particular type of family as certain posters are doing. My kids have an absent father. He died. About as absent as you can get. No behaviour problems. They are 19 and 16 now.

parents always get the blame but mostly it’s the U.K. school system which is wrong. It’s utterly inflexible, focusing on exacting standardisation in preparation for work. It’s about forcing maximum numbers of children into a one size fits all education which in reality only truly suits a percentage of children. Children fail in U.K. schools when infact they just need something else in order to blossom and shine. As the saying goes, all behaviour is communication. We should be celebrating children’s differences, embracing the true potential of children rather then trying to ram square pegs into round holes.

Which school systems are you comparing it with?

Parents should take responsibility for some of their child's behaviour. I agree that y8 are generally the problem year- not all of them obviously.

The issue isn't single-parent households or COVID. They may be factors in specific circumstances that contribute to an individual child's situation but they aren't the major determiners.

The issue is in the way in which the majority of our society regard "Parenting". Parenting is a skill that can (and needs to be) learnt, practised, developed and improved. There are other countries that understand this and a culture of feedback and support exist where parents are given advice, classes, critique, etc. The idea of "it takes a village..." is still very much alive in some societies.

In the UK, however, commenting on a person's parenting is seen as taboo and taken as a personal insult. As a result, the overall quality of parenting has fallen and a small but significant minority have ended up using a ineffective permissive parenting style or an overly aggressive snowplow style. Neither of these help the children in the long-term.

There is nothing that a school can do to fix things if a child's experience up to and outside of school is that they can do what they want or are immune to consequences.

But again, why didn't we have the same issues 30 years ago? The school system hasn't changed that much. In my school it was all sitting at a desk, taking exams, detention if skirt was too short/heels too high/ forgot your hymn book or PE kit etc.

Also what is the childs "difference" is they are just lazy? Some children are the same as some adults are. If I seriously had the choice whether to work or not I'd choose not. But you know I have to as I need to pay the bills. I hated school, didn't want to go, and I don't want to go to work either but I want the money so I do it.

As I've said before I do think teens should be able to leave formal education earlier and do an apprenticeship if that works best for them. But I'm talking like 14/15 earliest. I'm not sure what other options you think could be available for a 10 year old who is violent and aggressive and just doesn't want to be there. They can hardly start an apprenticeship at 10.

Also, if their behaviour IS communication and they are just saying for example they're angry because they have an absent father, what other education option will help that? You can't change the absent father issue, so what option would you offer that angry violent 10 year old that would apparently fix it?

No way would I ge supervising a detention wjth a child who hit me. That shocking.

I'm sorry, but the problems are down to poor parenting. There have always been social problems/neglect/abuse/absent father's etc., but children used to behave in spite of all these.

Children need discipline and guidance. You only have to read on here about the abuse that parents receive from their children, being hit, insulted etc. it's disgusting. If either of mine had tried that they'd have been dealt with and wouldn't have tried it again, and I don't mean being smacked or anything like that. My eldest had ADHD and PDA so, trust me, I know about bad behaviour. I was quite strict though and had to run the place like a bootcamp at times, but he straightened up just fine. He went to uni, has a good job, friends, travels, is a lovely chap and we have a great relationship. I didn't take any shit though.