Is behaviour out of control in a lot of schools?

[Sophie12319]

Not sure whether to move DD (10) to another school. Everyday she's coming home saying she can't learn as there are a group of boys who throw stuff about the classroom, shout out when the teacher is talking, walk about the classroom in lesson. She has said teacher has sent them to headteacher in the past but it carries on.

This is not a teacher bashing thread btw (in fact, I have the upmost respect for DD's teacher as I have seen the boys behaviour at the school gate and I don't know how she does a whole day), maybe more of a parent bashing of why some parents let their kids behave like this?

Anyway, back to the point of thread, I spoke to my sister about moving her to which she said there's no point as he DS' school is the same.
Feel a bit hopeless as I feel DD's education is being ruined! I've emailed the school before about their behaviour but I feel at a loss!

Sigh.

I was a teacher. I'll try to keep this anecdote brief.

I did long term cover at a school for a couple of terms. Couple of classes had really awful behaviour. Ringleader spraying hairspray and doing her make up in lesson etc. Flat out refusal to stop her conversation so I could teach.

School was all about inclusion. But as a supply I had nothing to lose so I just insisted she was removed. I prepared a pack of work and offered to mark it all and support her etc. She was removed, and overnight the class was calm. She also did the work and learned so much more.

Aside from that yep a lot of schools have this rule the roost type student. It's really difficult. Can't do a lot because a lot of it comes down to mental health. :-/

Is it the majority of the pupils though or just a few being very disruptive?
My son has just finished his GCSE,s and has left.svhool.now and he said there were some kids in year 11 still.acting like idiots throwing food around and generally just being arses,but he just rolled his eyes .

It was at the school I worked at. Not directly as a result of Covid but a change of management. Kids running out of school,
adults having to find them, kids biting and punching members of staff, racist language being used, constant belittling of staff… and parents either didn’t care or backed their children up and refused to see their little angels may have something to do with the fight that broke out.
It eroded me so much that I left and wouldn’t ever return to an environment where I felt unsafe and unsupported. Shame really as I loved what I did with a passion but oh my god I’m so stress free (from work stuff!) that I feel I’ve won the lottery now every day I log on for work!

Many Scottish schools have Police on site. I would love to see Army Vets retrain as teacher and given the freedom to instill discipline and order to schools. Too many children have never been told no and made to toe the line.

Ok, my child is no angel in school, some of it's his ADHD some of it, is he chooses to just be a little wanker some days. I can tell the difference.

Well he was exceptionally disruptive and rude one day, I had a call he was possibly going to be excluded and I needed to come in. I had, had enough I knew what he was doing, monopolising on the soft touch approach. He's a tiny 9 year old sociopath I swear.

I'll be honest, I'd done the "performance parenting" let's talk about your feelings, really need to understand you blah blah blah before in the office. But this time I looked the headmistress in the eye and I said "enough, he needs to be broken, brace yourself" well ....I yelled at him, told him if I had one more call from the school I would take everything away, I pushed and pushed, the tears came, it turned into that hiccuping snivelling crying, my voice boomed and echoed round this little victorian village school corridors.

Moral of the story. He was star of the week by Friday and we've had no more "behavioural issues" in school, he's even won an extra award for being respectful and all the staff have commented on his change of attitude and behaviour. Headmistress looked shell shocked, and as I exited the office the faculty (who were eavesdropping) scurried away like sewer rats 🤣

Some kids just don't respond to soft touch, they will push and test boundaries and if you make the boundary too soft on it will go. My son is like this, sometimes you've just got to rule by tyranny, and have harsh defined boundaries and expectations.

I feel for the schools because they just can't discipline and enforce like they used to. I know when I was in primary in the 90's a telling off by the head wasn't a let's talk, quiet room and gardening club, you stood there and were berated and then sent away crying. The line had been drawn, you went too far 🤷🏻‍♀️

I always back the school up, and I think they know now my "new age performance parenting" has its limits and sometimes I'm just too exhausted from loan parenting to keep it up. 😳

Have been a primary school teacher for 20 years. A lot of the behaviour issues I see down my end (KS1) are down to unsupported and undiagnosed needs. There are far more of these children in school now than there were in the past. By upper KS2 there is sometimes more support in place for these kids or they have been able to access different provision. Among older primary kids most of the behaviour problems are amongst those who simply choose to do the wrong thing and couldn't care less about consequences.

My school did have a rather disastrous flirtation with "restorative conversations" as a behaviour management strategy which just made behaviour worse.

My secondary-aged DC is at a very strict school. She is quiet and well-behaved and absolutely hates the rigidity of it all but behaviour is generally ok. It seems that there is no alternative these days to either anarchy or prison camp.

I've been astonished by how badly a small group of children in my DD's year behave, how strident the parents are in their refusal to back up the staff and how powerless senior leadership is to make lasting interventions. The knock-on effect on morale and learning has been huge with many teachers on sick leave and more still leaving altogether.

There have been incidences of violence, racism, homophobia, sexual assault and endless sexually violent language referencing porn, rape etc. Teachers have been hit and had things thrown at them, been threatened with retaliation for trying to enforce consequences and had children bragging that their parents will 'get them out of' any sanctions they are given. And they do.

These are 11 and 12-year-olds, just starting their secondary school journey and they are ungovernable. Yes, a few individuals will have additional needs that may have yet to be identified and supported. But, on the whole, because the SEN provision is good despite budget restraints, these are just horrible kids with too much internet access and too few boundaries.

@x2boys Yr 8 and 9 have always been the worst (although Yr 7s come in now thinking they rule the roost). There are always groups of lovely, hard working, pleasant children but those who are easily led astray copy the poorly behaved students but by year 10 have started to mature and focus with just a handful of distrupters left, plus by year 11 the worst offenders will have been excluded.

@Sophie12319 I used to think this way when I started teaching and I was frustrated at kids being awful to me and then seemingly getting "rewarded". It depends how it's being done. Imagine for example a child who is witnessing domestic violence or alcohol abuse at home. They couldn't care less about their literacy lesson and as a child they can't process and control their emotions like adults can so they act out. They are then put out of class. Does the HT scream and shout and come down hard on them, reinforcing their belief that nobody cares about them and adults can't be trusted, or does the HT try to build some sort of relationship with them (gardening, saying good morning etc). You say the behaviour hasn't improved. This won't happen overnight and may never happen if the child continues in the same unhappy environment but it's got to be worth a try. These are children we are talking about. They don't chose to be "bad". They just want attention and any attention is better than none.
Maybe have an honest conversation with your child explaining you don't know WHY he gets to go out and do gardening but maybe he's finding it difficult to cope in class and needs some quiet time. I'm sure she can relate to that without needing to see it as a treat.

Theres actually not a lot we can do for bad behaviour in schools. Some teachers send them to the head, but often they are in meetings, not in school, or busy so they might just end up sitting outside the school office for 10 minutes and then sent back to class.

Schools should have a behaviour policy though and it should be followed. In my experience heads are VERY reluctant to suspend children.

Personally I would request a meeting with head, explain the situation, make it clear the teacher is not the issue, but stress your concern over the behaviour of certain children making it hard for others to learn. Ask what the behaviour policy is and ask if it's being followed. In my experience you NEED to speak up and complain otherwise NOTHING will get done. I bet the teacher has complained to the head about their behaviour and gotten no where. It's only when parents start to make a fuss anything ever gets done. Even better if theres a group of parents.

Those of you making the same excuses which arguably are part of the problem need to desist. It is the children sitting quietly becoming traumatised that are deserving of empathy. There is an absolute epidemic of terrible behaviour amongst teenagers . We currently have mob rule and there is only one way to deal with that- firmly with zero tolerance. Schools need to be able to expel pupils, there needs to be far more police involvement and referral units need to stop being enablers . It is not fair on teachers to expect them to deal with this unsupported . They are not security staff

@UsernameAlreadyTaken101 but I don't see how gardening and soft talks will help my DD's education or the teacher when they come back thinking they had a grand old time!

And surely it will just lead to more disrespect to the teacher? Like "ha ha. You told me off but at least I had a wonderful afternoon!"

Or "I hate you! At least Mr (headteacher) understand me unlike you!"

This is such a key factor and one that gets overlooked again and again and again. If the disruption is seen to be rewarded by other pupils they will misbehave too.

Behaviour has been getting worse for a few years.
COVID then put them back mentally 2 years.

So now there’s badly behaved students who are 2 years less mature on top.

I know people who are leaving primary teaching due to behaviour which I never thought I’d hear.

Due to your DDs age I would leave her where she is unless she is getting bullied or something, as chances are it’s going to be the same in the new school.

Our secondary school is having a massive clamp down on behaviour and the rules are insanely strict which id always thought I’d be against.
But tbh I’m looking forward to it because I think it will benefit the majority of students who are well behaved.

I didn't realise that police on site was a common occurrence. It's a shame that it's needed but if that's what it takes to help staff and pupils that cause no problems feel safer then so be it.

I think secondary schools should be single sex. Why should the girls suffer because of the badly behaved boys. And having no girls to show off to might help the boys as well.

I agrée with PP that often Heads will only listen to parents (or inspectors!) when it comes to behaviour. OP, get some of the other parents together and have a conversation with the Head. I guarantee the teacher has already raised this issue, and her hands are tied behind her back.

But is it always that

How about them taking some responsibility for a change

Lack of resources... ha! Projectors/whiteboards/ pastoral rooms with pool tables etc. we had to share a decade old book but in the early 00s! Parents not disciplining their children and blaming everything but themselves is the issue .

I think phones and SM have affected concentration and cognition

I left teaching because of this. I had no more energy to give.

That's why it has to be done properly. It's not a reward but time out to cool down and have someone listen to what it is that's wrong. He has to acknowledge the impact on others and understand that's not the way to continue. It needs to be done in agreement with the class teacher and a long term approach needs to be put in place. He is young though and can't just change radically after one or two sessions of gardening. If the issue is ASN then it probably won't change without support being put into the classroom. Ultimately there is no money for this.
It's incredibly frustrating but what I'm trying to reinforce is please don't blame the children, blame the system. Not every child is lucky enough to have a caring parent like you. There are some awful attitudes on this post by people I assume are parents themselves. We don't blame the patients for the failures of the NHS. By all means complain but complain to the people who can actually make a change!

What would teachers want to see change in order that they be able to teach abd pupils are able to learn?

Primary here. Lots of children in early years coming up who are non verbal or apparently needing to be stretched because they are so bright and not disciplined for wrecking the place and half killing each other. Apparently we need to distract them which means give them an iPad.

It is actually a real mix of learning and behaviour needs and staff firefighting and being criticised when they ask for support. It is much worse than it has ever been and we need some real support and appropriate interventions if things are to improve.

I haven't rtft, but as a secondary teacher I agree the behaviour gets worse the further down the years you go. My year 7 class are feral, they just can't understand that they need to not interrupt me. They all seem to think that what they want to say trumps everything else, it's exhausting! The only thing that seems to help is dishing out warnings left right and centre and then setting detentions. Not exactly how I want to be teaching, but needs must...

I just wanted to say that there might be all sorts going on with these boys that you are unaware of. There might be SEN, there might be safeguarding concerns, there might be extreme poverty etc. You will not be told about this for obvious reasons of confidentiality. I appreciate it's difficult to feel a lot of sympathy when your child is suffering though!

My other point is that most secondary schools set pupils according to ability and there is a huge correlation between lower sets and poor behaviour. Even though your DD is at an all-through school, I imagine they'll do some form of setting (assuming the secondary part of the school is bigger than the primary) and she might not see that much of these boys by then anymore, assuming she is quite able academically.