Is behaviour out of control in a lot of schools?

[Sophie12319]

Not sure whether to move DD (10) to another school. Everyday she's coming home saying she can't learn as there are a group of boys who throw stuff about the classroom, shout out when the teacher is talking, walk about the classroom in lesson. She has said teacher has sent them to headteacher in the past but it carries on.

This is not a teacher bashing thread btw (in fact, I have the upmost respect for DD's teacher as I have seen the boys behaviour at the school gate and I don't know how she does a whole day), maybe more of a parent bashing of why some parents let their kids behave like this?

Anyway, back to the point of thread, I spoke to my sister about moving her to which she said there's no point as he DS' school is the same.
Feel a bit hopeless as I feel DD's education is being ruined! I've emailed the school before about their behaviour but I feel at a loss!

For those (fortunately the minority on the thread) who are desperate to prove that all behaviour is because of trauma or an undiagnosed SEN need…
Yesterday my colleague told me that during her lesson a child got up, walked across the room sat on the arm of another child and then farted. When she said he was getting a behaviour point he responded with ‘why, what’s your problem?’ - this is the kind of thing teachers are dealing with day after day.

Lack of shame on the part of the parents as well as the child. Lack of sanctions that actually work. Raise your voice? You've lost control, apparently. And smacking? Goodness. You don't hit adults - why smacka child....yadayada. But there are sanctions if an adult hits another adult in an office. Different sanctions that can't be applied in a classroom. You can't take a child to court for bullying another or throwing chairs at teachers.
I once worked in a primary school in an area of deprivation. 37 children in a leaky portakabin, some of whom were badly behaved. No TA. After I refused to teach one child for bad behaviour he was taken out for a short time then returned to my classroom. Same appalling behaviour continued. So I gave him one smack on his bottom Was I out of control? No. I knew exactly what I was doing. I taught that boy for 2 years and no further problems with him or any other child. When on playground duty he looked out for me and held my hand while we walked around and chatted. He wasn't traumatised, but he knew good behaviour was expected and would be rewarded but there WOULD be consequences for bad behaviour.

I didn’t think teachers were allowed to smack children?

Don't get me wrong - children with special needs are in a different category. But there is absolutely no way that most of the endemic bad behaviour in schools is caused by children with special needs. The current sanctions in schools are not working and need to be revised.

@Kaiserchief
When I taught, smacks were on the sanctions list, though in the 4 different schools I taught in, it was extremely rare. In one state school, a child's good behaviour and really trying to do good work meant a trip to the headmistress for praise, a cuddle and a sweet out of a jar. Bad behaviour meant a trip to the headmistress, a telling off and a single bottom smack. Guess what? A wonderful school to teach in, happy children and no discipline problems.

I don't think there is a single cause or solution to any of this.

All I do know is that, for most people, going to work every day can be stressful and demanding but they aren't also having to deal with the daily risk and reality of being told to fuck off, called a cunt, being punched, scratched, kicked, racially abused and being actively prevented from from doing your job by the very people you are working for and with little to no support or ability to prevent it from happening again tomorrow and, when it does happen, having to account for your every move in the run up to it so it can be established if it were your fault or not. And that's before you also factor in the environment being trashed, resources damaged, broken and destroyed.

In fact, before I went into teaching, the only people I encountered who behaved like this were inpatients on a drug and alcohol rehab ward! And they were removed permanently if they did it once.

Yours is a message of hope.

Competition to the state monopoly is obscenely expensive at the moment. And highly influenced by state norms.

Not so in Africa and India where there are cheap private schools in the slums.
Need to repeal a lot of regulation to get there in the UK.

My child’s teacher says there are no naughty children in the class just ones who make poor choices. Of course she doesn’t think that deep down, she knows fine well there’s some naughty kids in that class but that’s basically what society has come too. Such utter nonsense.

My daughter is a Millennial, and spends a lot of time being dismissive of problems in schools, basing it on undiagnosed SN, boring curriculums, giving me a shipload of ideas for ways in which behaviour could be excused and improved.
It has now bitten her in the arse as she’s working in an environment full of those same children, who, a decade down the line, are now adults.

They whine, sulk, tantrum and don’t show up on time for shifts. Object to uniforms, H&S expectations and find it hard to follow rules they don’t like or find boooring.
I have been a bit smug about it, but I’m trying really hard. 😁

And then everyone wonders why these kids can't cope in the workplace when they leave school.

Schools are failing them because they won't enforce discipline and boundaries (as are their shit parents).

It is parenting. Affluent schools don’t get off lightly. Behaviour is still shocking from peoples precious ones. Family break up is rife and is also a massive factor in behaviour and that spans all of society. Kids do need their dads. Especially teenage boys. Mum is not enough, even if she is worth her weight in gold.

Even in affluent schools having two (happy) parents who are still together is quite the novelty. Happy being the key word here as many are just stuck together financially and thoroughly miserable and therefore more disengaged with their kids.

@User135644

Some primary schools have a “no shouting policy”. Have you ever heard of something so ridiculous? It’s no doubt in place though because of the pathetic and wet parenting that is permeating society.

Crap parenting and a government that is woke are the reasons for this.

If parents took more pride/accountability for the behaviour of their children, that would help. If the government forced discipline in the classroom that would help.

In my child's primary class if one child starts acting violently all others have to exit. It should be the misbehaving child who is pulled out ffs! It doesn't pay to be well behaved.

Well you say boys need their dads, yes but only if they are decent dads, good role models. No dad is better than a crap one in my opinion. Because as you go on to say parents who are “together” but unhappy are unlikely to be parenting well.

But I agree the ideal home is probably one with two happy parents who are actively engaged with their kids.

@MissyB1

Exactly. My dad was there but he wasn’t there, he eventually left the home and l, well nothing changed cos he was always crap. I seen the effects way more on my brothers. Me and my sisters seemed to cope better without a dad than them. Our mum was worth her weight in gold.

Two, happy and engaged parents is a rarity, or so it feels. Children from poorer backgrounds who have this tend to still do very well.

@SparklingMarkling I agree, my ds goes to a private school, at least half of his year group are from either homes where the parents are separated, or homes where the parents seem totally disengaged with family life and their kids 🙁 unsurprisingly those kids (usually the boys) are getting into trouble. And I should point out it’s not always just the dads that are disengaged, some of the mums seem to be unaware that they have kids!

We talk about the choices they make becaise it sends the message (theoretically) that the children are in control of the choices they make. Tell them they're naughty and that's just what they are with no impetus to try and change.

One boy in my class has really changed this year. He was always missing breaktime and being sent to speak to SLT. But it hasn't happened in a few months. He took on board and distanced himself from the troublemakers. At least behaviourally.

I told him the other day how proud I was of him. He's not perfect - he's a 10 year old boy but I made sure he knew that I'd noticed. He said he'd been trying really hard. If I'd labelled him as naughty, would he have bothered?

@MissyB1

Totally agree. I’ve worked in urban schools and affluent and many of the issues are the same. Not private mind you. I haven’t worked in a private school. I know I’ve had to rethink certain career choices as I just simply couldn’t be engaged in both my career and my parenting at the same time. Probably let the feminist inside me down there but …. 🤷‍♀️

@OldChinaJug

Point taken but I think it’s just the culture as a whole. Schools having no shouting policies etc, teachers feeling like they’ve failed for the day because they’ve had to raise their voices. Kids getting dojo points for simply just doing as they were asked… it’s hard for schools I know. Parents will complain about ANYTHING.

In my child's primary class if one child starts acting violently all others have to exit. It should be the misbehaving child who is pulled out ffs! It doesn't pay to be well behaved.

Ideally it would be the misbehaving child who is removed and usually it is. Whole classes ae only evacuated for safety reasons.

The safety of every child in my class is my priority. If other children are at risk of harm from a child who is kicking off, I'm going to evacuate the class first. It also gives the kicking off child less of an audience (a lot of it is attention seeking and they play up to the crowd even when the crowd isn't on their side); clears a space around them for the adults to get to them; removes the likelihood of the situation escalating for any reason.

It's a last resort.

Unfortunately, in some cases, it escalates to 'last resort' status often. Also unfortunately, there is very little that staff and schools can legally do to tackle it. We always have a detailed debrief with the HT after any incident of this nature and we have to have acted in a way that we can justify and in which our choices are beyond reproach.

It's a scary situation to be in for children and adults alike and I always have trouble sleeping afterwards. Did I miss a warning sign? Could I have anticipated a trigger sooner? Did I do enough? How was the child impacted by my choices? How were the other children impacted?

In the most violence incidents, a child's parents will be called to collect them and they'll be back in tomorrow. In the same class with the same teacher and the same children. Most of the time, we make the miss breaktime because we've got nothing else.

I've worked in special schools where this kind of violence is common place. They are set up completely differently. Higher staff to child ratio; better training for physically restraining and removing a child; swift and co-ordinated responses. Due to small class sizes (4 or 5 children in a class) it's easier to isolate and remove the violent child. We don't have those resources in mainstream.

Some primary schools have a “no shouting policy”. Have you ever heard of something so ridiculous? It’s no doubt in place though because of the pathetic and wet parenting that is permeating society.

I know a teacher who was suspended for shouting at a 16yo girl who was a massive bully, had a behaviour record as long as your arm and had been causing huge problems in the school for several years. She made a complaint about the teacher and said that him shouting at her had made her feel 'unsafe' in school. She was heard laughing about it with her mates afterwards. Even though there were staff and student witnesses to the 'incident', who confirmed he had raised his voice, but not been threatening etc, he was suspended for months. The headteacher was just unwilling to stand up to kids and their difficult parents, so she didn't back staff in dealing with their behaviour.

Totally agree with this.

I worked in a school with a no shouting policy once.

It didn't last long!

And yes, dojo points for just do the basic of sitting on your bum and not verbally abusing someone. I get it.

@Fairislefandango

Yes, it’s this sort of culture. Usually amplified by scared heads. The worst kid in my sons year group (yr9) gets away with murder because his mum is a social worker and no doubt knows all the correct terminology etc etc.

She frequently comments on the schools page “it’s covid that has caused all this upset in our children”. I’m sorry, covid DID do a lot of damage but it’s a bloody convenient cop out for some parents. No, couldn’t possibly be anything to do with your indulgent parenting where it’s quite easy to accept no accountability and just point your finger at the school. It’s honestly sickening.

No doubt i will get flamed for this but hey ho. There is no one reason for the wild behaviour in schools, there are many reasons. Poor parenting and the i am my child's best friend brigade, rampant poverty, over crowded classes, HT's that have targets to meet and won't back their staff, Government policy and the decision to have SEN children in mainstream school. I think the last has had a huge impact, children who through no fault of their own can't behave and have huge meltdowns, children that can't sit quietly and learn, children that are disruptive. We have tried and the exercise has failed. We ask the rest of the children in the class to except that behaviour and make exceptions but those children can't always understand why Johnny is allowed to run around the class room and scream at the teacher but they can't and when there are 4 or 5 children SEN children running round and in the children's eyes "getting away with it" they chose to behave in the same way. Of course the Sen children can then find the whole enviroment too much .None of the children are at fault, they are just trying to cope with the situation forced on them by adults.

My child has autism. They don’t run around class, and would only have a meltdown in an extremely chaotic atmosphere (they struggle when the e.g. music teacher has no class control as it is so noisy). If the rest of the kids were under control and physical assaults were addressed in a meaningful fashion they’d love school.

so don’t label SEN kids as the troublemakers.