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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is behaviour out of control in a lot of schools?

923 replies

Sophie12319 · 26/06/2023 18:33

Not sure whether to move DD (10) to another school. Everyday she's coming home saying she can't learn as there are a group of boys who throw stuff about the classroom, shout out when the teacher is talking, walk about the classroom in lesson. She has said teacher has sent them to headteacher in the past but it carries on.

This is not a teacher bashing thread btw (in fact, I have the upmost respect for DD's teacher as I have seen the boys behaviour at the school gate and I don't know how she does a whole day), maybe more of a parent bashing of why some parents let their kids behave like this?

Anyway, back to the point of thread, I spoke to my sister about moving her to which she said there's no point as he DS' school is the same.
Feel a bit hopeless as I feel DD's education is being ruined! I've emailed the school before about their behaviour but I feel at a loss!

OP posts:
Changechangechanging · 27/06/2023 19:51

Boys lacking boundaries and discipline (in school and perhaps at home) and lacking positive male role models (at home and perhaps at school) will often have a negative effect on their development and on their behaviour

Again. Bullshit. Lots of boys from middle class, two parent homes who lack boundaries, discipline and a good male role model. It is not something reserved solely for households that have no men in them.

Oh, and I've been single for 15 years, brought up 3 boys (2 at uni, the third will go this year, hopefully) and I'm also a teacher. Sure, there are single mums who struggle. There are also plenty of 2 parent households who struggle. Whilst educational outcomes for children brought up in single parent households are not as good as they are for children brought up in 2 parent households, they're not so statistically different to suggest single parenthood is itself the problem.

Pretending that the problems in schools today stem from all those poor boy children who've been brought up by single mums and no male role model is ridiculous. We moved on from that shit in the 1980s.

Nepmarthiturn · 27/06/2023 19:53

thegreenlight · 27/06/2023 19:51

Exclusion is looked upon by LAs and ofsted as the school ‘failing the child’. It is very hard to do and not really a deterrent.

If they don't see it as a deterrent then there's not much point in them being in school anyway is there? They clearly do not value it and have no intention of learning. So kick them out and let those who do wish to learn do so in peace. Heads need to grow a backbone whatever Ofsted says. It'll probably be absolished soon, anyway, having clearly failed in every possible respect.

ADarknessOfDragons · 27/06/2023 19:55

I haven't read the whole thread, but am feeling very grateful my DTs are not in a school with behaviour issues. We're not in a city- in fact they're at a small village school with 15 in their year and whole school number of around 100 children.

Behaviour is good. I asked them- noone is usually sent out. Very occasionally and one of two boys. One is a boy who has ADHD. The other has a diagnosis too, though I'm not sure it should affect his behaviour, more just a cheeky/push your luck type kid.
They do lots of trips, have lots of visitors to the class, play lots of sports and ha e various taster afternoons for different sports.

They are due to go to secondary in September and are going to a grammar school which I think has a good reputation for behaviour. While I have many reservations about them going to a grammar, the behaviour there isn't one, I hope!!

On the other hand my DD was likely one of the ones being moaned about on here. I had another parent actually ask me "what's WRONG with her?!" (after observing her screaming at me and trying to punch me and pushing me when trying to encourage her to go into school). She is autistic with ADHD though an absolute professional-level masker of her difficulties. Clearly autistic- enough for the first primary she tried to be making g noises about referring her from Y1 and she was referred in Y3- don't think I was ready to hear it til then. She is academically able and no problem, until things got harder, pressures went up, talk of transition when despite her diagnosis she continued to have no support while school maintained she was "fine in school." However reading paperwork afterwards she wasn't sitting in her seat, leaving the classroom, rearranging pen pots not doing work, joining another class or hanging out in the office or Head's office. Her school based anxiety got to the point she could no longer attend, so by the time she got an EHCP it was too late. There are THOUSANDS of children out of school due to unmet needs. I was speaking to SENDIAS before who was telling me the sheer number of children out of school is huge. My poor DD is diagnosed with school trauma and suspected school phobia and has Education Otherwise Than In School now. But something drives these behaviours. And for my DD it was her neuro-divergence and her anxiety.

They're not all bad.

FrenchFancie · 27/06/2023 19:57

I work in a primary, my role is split accords various year groups doing various interventions.
in the last 5 working days I have:

  • been told ‘fuck off you fat cunt’ by a 10 year old, who I gently pulled up for wearing massive hopped earring to PE, against school rules and repeated reminders
  • dodged a flying chair from a 9 year old pupil because I stepped in to prevent her from hitting and hair pulling another 9 year old who she doesn’t like.
  • had several library books thrown at me.
  • Been tutted at, signed at, ignored and generally back chatted at by various 10 year old boys and girls
  • had a six year old sigh and say ‘i hate you miss’ because I told him he could t just draw pictures in his English book.

the general level of backchat and disrespect shown by kids is u believeable - the number of times you have to repeat instructions before they are (begrudgingly) complied with. The lies told, and the violence towards each other and staff in unreal.

honeatly, I believe it’s poor parenting, possibly through covid when parents were very stretched trying to work and home school, and got into an ‘anything for a quite life’ mentality. If your kids ignore you and speak to you rudely, they will do the same thing at school.

oh and as a TA I’m only paid £10.50 an hour for this…

Emsb2022 · 27/06/2023 19:58

This thread is of great interest to me. DS is at secondary school, not learning much as kids are throwing things around, looking at their phones, back chatting the teachers, talking during the lessons...DS is no angel btw but it seems since lockdown kids have become feral! We talked-about moving to another school but both came to the conclusion it would be the same and this has been confirmed by friends with kids at other local schools. Must be so hard to be a teacher now....

Nepmarthiturn · 27/06/2023 19:58

Changechangechanging · 27/06/2023 19:51

Boys lacking boundaries and discipline (in school and perhaps at home) and lacking positive male role models (at home and perhaps at school) will often have a negative effect on their development and on their behaviour

Again. Bullshit. Lots of boys from middle class, two parent homes who lack boundaries, discipline and a good male role model. It is not something reserved solely for households that have no men in them.

Oh, and I've been single for 15 years, brought up 3 boys (2 at uni, the third will go this year, hopefully) and I'm also a teacher. Sure, there are single mums who struggle. There are also plenty of 2 parent households who struggle. Whilst educational outcomes for children brought up in single parent households are not as good as they are for children brought up in 2 parent households, they're not so statistically different to suggest single parenthood is itself the problem.

Pretending that the problems in schools today stem from all those poor boy children who've been brought up by single mums and no male role model is ridiculous. We moved on from that shit in the 1980s.

Indeed. And when you look into that statistical difference it becomes apparent that the only reason it exists is money: because the UK tax system penalises single parents and taxes them more on the same household income. When that deliberate distortion to deliberately disadvantage single parent families enacted through Government policy is adjusted for - all other factors unadjusted - children raised in single parent households have outcomes as good as and often better than those in two adult households.

Ignore it, just yet another idiotic comment from the usual misogynists that pop up trying to blame women for just about any social ill imaginable. Even the systemic failure of the school system. You could not make it up, it's so ridiculous.

SilverGlitterBaubles · 27/06/2023 19:59

Parents and lack of parenting is a huge problem. Kids don't care because there are no consequences for their behaviour at school or at home. If they misbehave at school they know mum or dad will back them up and excuse their poor behaviour.

JMSA · 27/06/2023 20:00

FrenchFancie · 27/06/2023 19:57

I work in a primary, my role is split accords various year groups doing various interventions.
in the last 5 working days I have:

  • been told ‘fuck off you fat cunt’ by a 10 year old, who I gently pulled up for wearing massive hopped earring to PE, against school rules and repeated reminders
  • dodged a flying chair from a 9 year old pupil because I stepped in to prevent her from hitting and hair pulling another 9 year old who she doesn’t like.
  • had several library books thrown at me.
  • Been tutted at, signed at, ignored and generally back chatted at by various 10 year old boys and girls
  • had a six year old sigh and say ‘i hate you miss’ because I told him he could t just draw pictures in his English book.

the general level of backchat and disrespect shown by kids is u believeable - the number of times you have to repeat instructions before they are (begrudgingly) complied with. The lies told, and the violence towards each other and staff in unreal.

honeatly, I believe it’s poor parenting, possibly through covid when parents were very stretched trying to work and home school, and got into an ‘anything for a quite life’ mentality. If your kids ignore you and speak to you rudely, they will do the same thing at school.

oh and as a TA I’m only paid £10.50 an hour for this…

Agreed. It is 100% poor parenting.

titbumwillypoo · 27/06/2023 20:01

Just a point on "remove them from the classroom" In order to positively handle a child it must by law be reasonable, proportional and necessary. A child acting like a dickhead does not fulfil this criteria, a child on their phone, shouting out, throwing things onto the floor, tipping a table over and even lashing out at a member of staff does not fulfil this criteria. Staff in mainstream schools can refuse to be trained in positive handling and therefore will not handle any child. Staff who are willing to be trained know that with every physical intervention they run the risk of injury on either side that could be the end of their career. Is it any wonder that a TA on £14,000 a year is unwilling to just remove them from the classroom?

Santina · 27/06/2023 20:06

I started out in education back in 1997, I left in 2019. You couldn't pay me enough money to go back in to it. I even had one student say he would love to sue me, for no reason. Every week I get emails and phone calls from agencies asking if I want to go back teaching. I've been offered £40 an hour by some agencies. The education system is broken, it encourages poor behavior, senior management hide behind their title and don't support the staff on the shop floor. I feel sorry for the younger generation that need an education.

Lydia777 · 27/06/2023 20:08

UsernameAlreadyTaken101 · 26/06/2023 23:07

Do you teach? I'm not sure how someone with 20 years teaching experience, a degree, a postgraduate diploma and a masters in education can be described as uneducated but I suppose you don't know me so fair enough! 😂

Yes. I taught in England for years. Now, I teach in Ireland. It is a different world. The main problem in the UK is weak SLT who, like you, make excuses for poor behaviour.

Sunflowers80 · 27/06/2023 20:08

stbrandonsboat · 27/06/2023 19:04

Somebody had better formulate a better model of management of these people before the state education system completely collapses. Children like this have virtually no chance of growing up to be responsible and productive citizens and be capable of parenting when their own doomed offspring emerge. It's going to be a really shit society with these characters trying to hold down jobs and interacting with the public. Or is it going to become a two tier society with vast swathes of the population rendered completely useless because they were never socialised in even the most basics of acceptable human behaviour? It's gonna be fun out there.

What is the schooling system for?

In 10 years the world has changed. Robots are taking over 😆 maybe this country needs a new system place, more creativity, more play based education like in Finland until 7 rather than expecting year 1 to start reading and writing straight away. let them explore, role play, be creative, more art and nature, introduce meditation, Something has to change, it's not just the parents fault, it's a a combination and we need a shift. This government has ruined so many things , they need to go too.

BrilliantDaisy · 27/06/2023 20:10

DD’s secondary recently had the dreaded Ofsted. One of the points raised was behaviour. When I asked her about it, she said that her classes were fine (except for one subject). She thought this was referring to the younger years (she is Y11). Anecdotally, she says things are worse since Covid.

born2runaway · 27/06/2023 20:12

I have a family member whose kids are always in trouble at school. They're at their wits end with them now.

Lovely family, lovely kids but evil little shits to their teachers

It's heartbreaking for the parents. They've tried all
Sorts of discipline, except physical punishment.
I don't know what to suggest. I only have little
Ones

Haugh · 27/06/2023 20:12

Parents were taught ‘they are always correct’ when they were at school. Their children have the same mentality. I went to school where the staff wore gowns and the only ones who didn’t were the games teachers. They dressed like professionals and were always well groomed. Teaching staff don’t look like professionals now. It comes from the top. Pupils must be taught the boundaries and expelled - not excluded. I sound ancient but I’m not.
In our local comp. there are drug dogs regularly roaming. What a disaster!!

RhubarbCrumble12345 · 27/06/2023 20:14

Secondary teacher here - lots of comments about boys but i can genuinely say the issues we are having with 12/13 year old girls at the moment are horrific. They walk around the school in gangs, are abusive to all staff, abusive to all other pupils regardless of age and are stuck to their mobiles, often refusing to give them up in class and walking out the class if you insist. Even when I was at school, girls were never like this but wanted to put it out there that it's not all boys anymore!!

The fact we have no negative sanctions to discipline children is the issue. It's all about positive behaviour management etc. Have a chat about why they done such and such... They couldn't care less!!!

CrazyLadie · 27/06/2023 20:15

BravoMyDear · 26/06/2023 18:56

I know two of the unions in Scotland have. From one of their websites:

That's is absolutely shocking!!! My son has just went into 2nd year and if I got a call from the school for any outlandish behaviour, not so much being late but definitely being aggressive, you better belief there would be big consequences in my house!! Why would anyone want their child to be such little dick heads cause they turn into big dick heads when fully grown

User135644 · 27/06/2023 20:18

Changechangechanging · 27/06/2023 19:51

Boys lacking boundaries and discipline (in school and perhaps at home) and lacking positive male role models (at home and perhaps at school) will often have a negative effect on their development and on their behaviour

Again. Bullshit. Lots of boys from middle class, two parent homes who lack boundaries, discipline and a good male role model. It is not something reserved solely for households that have no men in them.

Oh, and I've been single for 15 years, brought up 3 boys (2 at uni, the third will go this year, hopefully) and I'm also a teacher. Sure, there are single mums who struggle. There are also plenty of 2 parent households who struggle. Whilst educational outcomes for children brought up in single parent households are not as good as they are for children brought up in 2 parent households, they're not so statistically different to suggest single parenthood is itself the problem.

Pretending that the problems in schools today stem from all those poor boy children who've been brought up by single mums and no male role model is ridiculous. We moved on from that shit in the 1980s.

Lots of boys from middle class, two parent homes who lack boundaries, discipline and a good male role model

I said this anyway. The country has gone soft is the issue.

TheDinosaurDuchess · 27/06/2023 20:26

RhubarbCrumble12345 · 27/06/2023 20:14

Secondary teacher here - lots of comments about boys but i can genuinely say the issues we are having with 12/13 year old girls at the moment are horrific. They walk around the school in gangs, are abusive to all staff, abusive to all other pupils regardless of age and are stuck to their mobiles, often refusing to give them up in class and walking out the class if you insist. Even when I was at school, girls were never like this but wanted to put it out there that it's not all boys anymore!!

The fact we have no negative sanctions to discipline children is the issue. It's all about positive behaviour management etc. Have a chat about why they done such and such... They couldn't care less!!!

I can tell you now, the young female offenders age 18/19 we have coming through the CJS system are way, way harder to manage than their equivalent male offenders.

They just seem highly obnoxious and have a real sense of entitlement and "I'm untouchable" about them sometimes.

The lying and the manipulation game is also much more apparent in this group also.

I've had them walk out of meetings, refuse to sign their license conditions or adhere to court orders, refuse to get off their phones and talk to me about quite serious issues, such as their offending!

Give me a male offender any day, generally far more compliant and ok might get a bit "shouty" occasionally, but generally far more respectful and apologetic after the "incident"

Genuinely dreading the next decade and what's heading our way in the system pipeline.

SignalLow · 27/06/2023 20:36

barms90 · 27/06/2023 19:35

Just a thread full of excuses. I live in Poland. Kids were online due to covid for a lot longer than in the uk. I can tell you now I have never heard of any of the behaviour meantioned here. They do not have cool down rooms just not needed. I ask kids if they are naughty what happens....they get a minus point and mum will be soon angry.
So why do kids here not behave like their English counterparts....parents. I teach some kids privately and if they are a little naughty (not listening ect) a quick do you want me to call your mother is enough to put a stop to any misbaviour.

It’s 100% down to the parents.

OldChinaJug · 27/06/2023 20:43

For those wondering whether this is the fault of single mothers, I'm a single parent. I've been a single parent for most of 24 years of parenting. I gained a first class degree as a single parent.

My son hasn't ever been in trouble at school. Not once. He graduated from university, lives with a female flatmate where he takes on 50% on the household chores and works full time.

The issue is not single mothers.

The issue may, in part, be very vulnerable women, themselves victims of childhood abuse, who are victims of subsequent relationship abuse, who are taken advantage of by unscrupulous men, who have children they are not equipped to raise with men who are, often thankfully, not in the picture. These boys are often then elevated to 'man of the house' staus from an early age. No boundaries, no discipline because their vulnerable mothers just want their children to love them and they equate discipline of any flavour with the abuse they received as children. They don't know how to parent effectively. By the time they realise, it's too late. Their preteen son is often taller and stringer than them and not afraid to mete put the se kind of abuse these women have lived with all their lives when their trauma responses are triggered and they are once again the victim and this time of a perpetrator of their own creation.

Their are a lot of boys in my school who fall into this category. Some girls too.

Or the girls who are raised to take no shit and be strong, independent women but without the recognition that they are still just children who are arrogant, rude and also lack discipline.

Or the dads who are intentionally raising their sons with incredibly damaging ideas of what it means to be a man (women are beneath them when most of their teachers are female; if someone says something you don't like, punch them etc).

That certainly explains some of the behavioural issues in my school.

Yes, there are a lot of unmet/undiagnosed additional needs but they are not the majority of children by far.

And they are all so aware of their rights. We do a lot on the unicef rights of the child in schools nowadays.

When you try taking their breaktimes off them, they can quote the article numbers of the rights that afford them a right to exercise, to be out doors and to socialise with their friends. The article number of their right to an education when you send them out of the room for persistently disrupting the education of others.

Everything is broken.

CompletelyOverwhelmedAgain · 27/06/2023 20:43

Re the cries of this being a parenting problem:

As a trainee teacher I used to think it was nearly all down to the parents. Then I had two autistic children.

Now, their case is slightly different to the majority (and I'm not saying all behaviour is down to SEN or all children with SEN have behaviour needs) but it blew my parent blame theories out of the water.

Again, I'm no perfect parents but we have offered the kids a loving, stable home, with consistent boundaries. We have spent most of our disposable income on enriching activities, specialist equipment, private therapists. We have fought to get them EHCPs, well resourced schools, access to highly specialised mental health and developmental services. Their behaviour is still shocking to the casual observer: physical aggression, destruction, screaming, rudeness, general disruption.

I'm sure there are some parents whose parenting style contributes to some classroom disorder but after meeting so many families in our position (to a lesser or greater degree), I'm convinced there is something deeper going on. I know way 'back in the day' children like mine would have been hidden away in borstals or residential "ESN" schools, but there seems to have been some kind of real terms explosion in SEND needs over the last generation.

Definitely a complex picture, not sure I there is a solution for you OP.

OldChinaJug · 27/06/2023 20:46

Bollocks. There. It's been a long day!

Refrosty · 27/06/2023 20:49

In the playground, I overheard a mum telling her child that she was sad that, yet again, he was asked to leave the class due to his behaviour. The kid said 'i don't care' and walked off.

This is the same mum who once asked me 'how do you get your son to get off his PS4 when he's been on it all day?' They were in Year 1! I told her to take it away completely as he could be addicted. She laughed at me.

Well... Carry on then init. This is a kid from a two-parent, comfortable home. I often wonder how teacher-parent conversations go with her/his equally aloof dad. I know there have likely been plenty. Everyday is a new incident.

This is just one boy though. The girls in the same class have their own issues, which is what takes up a lot of teacher time apparently (according to the class Whatsapp anyway)...

Honestly teachers have nothing but my respect. I couldn't do it.

Lira715 · 27/06/2023 20:49

my Dd7 came home and said the whole class had to sit outside as one boy was chucking furniture about .. said it happens a few times a week and they all have to go outside until he “ calms down “ I understand the teachers are obviously removing the children so they don’t get hurt but don’t understand why they don’t just remove him.