Is behaviour out of control in a lot of schools?

[Sophie12319]

Not sure whether to move DD (10) to another school. Everyday she's coming home saying she can't learn as there are a group of boys who throw stuff about the classroom, shout out when the teacher is talking, walk about the classroom in lesson. She has said teacher has sent them to headteacher in the past but it carries on.

This is not a teacher bashing thread btw (in fact, I have the upmost respect for DD's teacher as I have seen the boys behaviour at the school gate and I don't know how she does a whole day), maybe more of a parent bashing of why some parents let their kids behave like this?

Anyway, back to the point of thread, I spoke to my sister about moving her to which she said there's no point as he DS' school is the same.
Feel a bit hopeless as I feel DD's education is being ruined! I've emailed the school before about their behaviour but I feel at a loss!

Lira715
Teachers cannot easily pick up a 7 year old who is kicking and screaming. Either they or he will get hurt.

Never once said it's an excuse. Never once said there should be no boundaries or consequences. These are vital to my classroom. Thanks for your input though.

Far too much on their rights but not on taking responsibility for their actions etc

This reminds me of my first year teaching when a mum asked if she could meet with me after school to discuss her child's behaviour at home.

OK, not really my remit though - I parent my child; you parent yours. But I agreed to meet her.

Turns out, her child was up until the small hours watching films that were unsuitable on a TV that she had bought him for his bedroom.

I suggested she removed the TV from his room. She looked at me like I was a moron and told me she wasn't going to do that. She just wanted him to understand that he couldn't watch 18 films at midnight.

I did my NQT year in Reception...

A relative works in community mental health nursing and has commented that on the last few years about half of their cases are young adults who have left education and entered the adult world never hearing the word No and having no boundaries in place growing up.. They can't cope or work with an adult world of having to get up, go to work, do as you are told etc.... She said the consequences they are seeing of crap parenting creating obnoxious young people who can't believe the world isn't revolving around them.

So those overstretched mental health services that have a genuine user group are also dealing with the results of shit parenting.

And as for posters saying children who misbehave havibg problems at home or SEN diagnosis... Not all, not mist... I can safely say the bulk of poor behaviour in our school is from children misbehaving because they know school can't really do anything and parents are either ineffective at dealing with them "Don't do that again" isn't really having an impact, is it? Or parents genuinely don't care.

A family in our school are notorious.. Wealthy, loud, parents proud that their sons can "handle" themselves and are "cock of the year" (really!) and will not hear any negative comments about their children, and if they do either any child they feel has accused them (mostly rightly) then they will pay for it, either by bullti g or making false accusations back.

And that happens often.

Never have I claimed to have all the answers. All I'd like from the people frothing at the mouth on here is to open their minds a little and see beyond their own noses. Knee jerk reactions and draconian measures help nobody.

half of their cases are young adults who have left education and entered the adult world never hearing the word No and having no boundaries in place growing up.. They can't cope or work with an adult world of having to get up, go to work, do as you are told etc

Then they find out there's actual consequences in the workplace if you can't behave.

There's plenty of threads from managers on here complaining about Gen Z workers as well. The next generation will be worse.

Calm down Columbo! 🕵️ Is the child of a heroin addict headbutting someone a common occurrence in most schools? If so then you are right, I am naive. It's odd that an experienced teacher would make such a foolish assumption that leafy suburbs don't have any social issues. Ever heard of domestic violence, recreational drug use or alcoholism? All prevalent in middle class areas. But for the record, no I work in an area of severe deprevation close to the city centre.

Very true.

Absolutely.

I have a friend who is a GP. Well he's retired now but we talked about it 5 or 6 years ago and he said similar.

Lots of late teens/young 20somethings presenting with anxiety and MH issues. On further investigation, these were largely the result of realising that the rest of the world didn't think they were as beautiful, perfect and clever as their parents led them tbelieve e they were. He wasn't being flippant and neither am I.

Far from raising their self esteem and resilience (as was the intention) these parents brought up children who became young adults who just had no idea how to function outside the bubble their parents had created for them.

God, even my own dad and his second wife did it with my half siblings! They were never to hear the word "no". They started school never having been told no.

I knew the HT of the school they started at. She wasn't so unprofessional as to divulge her experience of my dad's family but her face said it all when I told her I was related to them.

Yes I think the self esteem thing is an issue

My generation were often brought up with too bad, get on with it and get over it and you are not the centre of the universe it does build resilience

Yes it is!

We have a few children who do this.

Quite simply, it's not safe for the other children to be in the room. That's why we remove them.

I had to do this recently, the child concerned attacked me when i approached him. I couldn't have done any of what I had to do whilst all the other children were sitting on the carpet around him. They'd have been hurt too. I don't want any child in class to be hit by thrown furniture any more than I want to be but, given the choice, I know whose safety I'd risk first (and it wouldn't be your child's!)

We did remove him eventually but it had to he done safely. To protect the other children, him and the staff concerned - to give us space to manage the situation down. When a child is that out of control, they are unpredictable and strong.

I believe that in Secondary School Kids are ‘misbehaving’ as they are bored of an outdated & archaic curriculum & routine.. It doesn’t take into account individual learning needs or reflect modern society or modern jobs & ways of living. The system is failing everyone in it, both Teachers & Students! Absolute total waste of time & £ for everyone involved. Lots of mental health issues for everyone involved! System is collapsing!

Imagine that your work has the same rules as School.. How long would you work there? Oh sorry, you have no choice & must go everyday for 5 years regardless of your opinion so bye off you go 😂Please take the time to think of all the Secondary School rules as if they were work rules.. Yes school rules & curriculum are needed for children but they need reviewing urgently!

Imagine as an adult being told to attend 5 different meetings a day sat next to 5 different friends/colleagues everyday & not being allowed to talk to the person sat next to you! Possibly you might not be allowed to go to the toilet or if it will be recorded & held against you (depending on what time it is & how lomg it took you) Plus you have no control over what the meeting is about or how the information is presented to you! & being unsure if you will ever need to use the information presented in real life ever. You cannot ever give feedback about this to anyone as it is not able to be changed❌

You are aware that several of your friends/colleagues struggle to understand each meeting as some have issues reading or regulating their emotions etc & some seem to know more than the Teacher or ask a lot of questions or understand very quickly yet everyone must always attend the same meeting all together! No matter what happens in the meeting though it always finishes at the same time whether everyone understands or nobody gets it at all 😂

Then go home after a full day of 5 meetings & having to do 1 to 2 hours of work again about the meeting you either dont understand or fully understand already!
Also you have to adapt to different teaching styles & methods of each of these 5 Teachers every day (approx 8 to 15 diff teachers in total depending on the school) then going home to another 1 or 2 adults that then spend the evening & weekend telling you to make sure u do this boring work at home too.

You are then given a rating & report by 10 different people/teachers who have spent approx 3 mins per week with you individually over the last few months & have only recently remembered your name! 😂This report will not be given to you, but to somebody else who will potentially be disappointed in you!

Basically we are forcing kids to put up & shut up & do what they’re told rather than have any choice in subjects & taking into account how they best learn as an individual & their individual needs!

They are bored &/or frustrated (depending on the individual) which often results in ‘misbehaviour’ which then results in sanctions which do nothing to address the root cause of the problem but do label the child as naughty etc which causes more misbehaviour as they sense disappointment.

Resulting in adults who put up & shut up with being in a boring routine job &/or relationship as they’ve been conditioned into thinking thats how life is! Oh hi to a stressed adult population popping pills for mental & physical health conditions or maybe just living on wine or living for the weekend to escape or just pretending everything is great!

When new heads etc try and introduce better behaviour policies parents get up in arms and write to the press about draconian measures. It would be better if they supported schools to reduce low level disruption so those with genuine needs are identified and supported either in house or in an alternative setting.
Send your child to school on time, with the appropriate equipment (pen, pencils, calculator, books and a decent breakfast).
This cut downs disruption levels. If they are given a detention don't excuse them.
Don't tell them that homework doesn't need to be done.
Help them organise themselves.
I have my own SEND DD and have found that helping her to be organised reduces her anxiety.

My teen is autistic but the type of autistic who follows the rules, does her work and expects everyone do be nice. In reality she comes home exhausted from coping in lessons where there’s trouble. There are lots of mixed ability lessons such as art, DT, drama etc where she dreads going to school. They rang me one day as she literally had a meltdown as some boys were making rude comments to her and she was trying to ignore them and it got too much. She had got to the point where she was so upset she couldn’t speak. Her favourite lessons are drama and music and these have been ruined by the same children. They were even given the option to choose between a musical theatre performance, a drama performance and an animation which they’d design and voice. She was desperate to do the musical theatre show she picked and was looking forward to performing it for parents as years before her had done. It was cancelled. They videoed what they could if it but most of the kids messed about and didn’t take it seriously. She was devastated as she was a career in drama. Luckily the after school performance groups are selective about who they allow to join. She’s in too set for languages and prefers this lesson to many as the top set kids seem to be more work focussed and less disruptive in her experience. Her maths and English are kind of top middle set so have a decent mix of behaviour but the mixed ability and tutor groups are hard work where behaviour is concerned. Her tutor group must be difficult as she’s been given the award for student of the year for attitude 2/3 of the last 3 years. Several kids have been moved from the tutor group, some have been excluded from the school short term and long term.

I am a teacher and can totally understand how hard it is for staff. I’m primary trained and could never work in secondary. I’ve worked in special too where there is a range of challenging behaviour but with children in send schools there is a lot more known about the reasons behind the behaviours and a lot of support and staffing in place to try and prevent it happening or respond appropriately when it does happen. Mainstream schools are really under funded in lots of areas when it comes to understanding and dealing with behaviours - send it not.

@Bubble08080 completely agree - I often think how horrible it would be to have school rules imposed on us as adults.

Imagine if you made some kind of social misstep at work (e.g. talking over someone) and your boss wrote your name on a public board next to a sad face?

I see this every day.

My heart breaks for children like your daughter. It's just so bloody unfair.

Yes exactly! Kids are learning & are going to make mistakes/behave out of the ordinary for so many different reasons!

Yes, and then these young adults will likely in a few years have children and those children will be raised by these standards and expectations of their parents....

Police are over stretched so any incidents so severe parents want to take further or school don't get dealt with

Children's / Social services are so over stretched services they should be providing aren't available so are often pushed back down to schools

CAMHs are so overstretched they have often a 1 or 2 year waiting list so required support is often make do and mend via school.

Schools are overstretched dealing with shit behaviour and often (undiagnosed because providers who gave referrals made are... Overstretched) SEN children who need further support. A TA, if you are lucky to have one.

Shit behaviour can't be efficiently dealt with as schools don't want to have a suspension or expulsion on their record as it is noted so they do what they can to avoid this but are spending less time teaching more time dealing with behaviour.

Imeducation and behaviour, parenting and community standards are in free fall.

I believe that in Secondary School Kids are ‘misbehaving’ as they are bored of an outdated & archaic curriculum & routine.

Nonsense. Schools have never made more effort to engage students, make lessons fun and praise and reward them for their efforts. Technology is used to make this easier and more appealing. Teachers are expected to both entertain and get results. Many students are uncooperative and unengaged, however relevant you try to make the subject and however much hard work you put into making your lesson fun and interesting.

Short of creating a curriculum based entirely on football, reality tv, celebrities and YouTubers, nothing will make those students want to learn. Even that probably wouldn't work tbh. The students who do want to learn very rarely complain about the curriculum. I agree that, for example, there should be more vocational subjects on offer, but it is very naïve to think that would create keen learners out of uninterested troublemakers.

Covid has had a massive impact on children and young people. Behaviour has gone downhill. Schools are overwhelmed, unsupported and underfunded. The government wants things ‘back to normal’ and refuses to see that the curriculum is not fit for purpose. Parents don’t support behaviour policies and make excuses for their ‘little darlings’ and often school management don’t support teachers with difficult pupils.

My eldest is at secondary and they actually do this there! They have someone ex-army in with some new behaviour programme they’re trying as post-covid the now-year-9s were wild.

At primary I felt the naughty kids got away with it. His state secondary is big on discipline; several Y7s have already been excluded. Not that this is great, but they seem to take bad behaviour very seriously.

It's easy to criticise school for not being like a workplace but do you have any suggestions for how to do things better? Plus of course there are plenty of ways in which schools are much easier environments than any workplace. Insult a colleague to their face or throw a chair across the room and you aren't coming back to work ever, but this sort of thing is tolerated in schools with often hardly any consequences.

This sounds completely alien to me, I know quite a few of our school governors and from what they say, there are very few behavioural issues. That said, the school does spend money on TAs, there are 2 per class all the way up the school who manage any child having difficulty with the work, concentration etc.
That said, it's a religious school and many hoops have to be jumped in order to get in. Which inadvertently translates to there being very few - if any - parents who aren't engaged in their child's education and I don't hear any reports of disruptive behaviour from my DC.

Am curious if there is any corelation between the schools mentioned in some of the anecdotes above and deprivation of the area, or is that mostly irrelevant when it comes to behaviour in schools.