All women I know are in my situation

[growli]

Pretty useless DH. They're left to look after the kids. Called nags if they complain.

It mostly falls on them. The marriages are pretty rubbish.

I've posted here so many times about my issues with my H and my lifestyle with small kids.

I always get told I need to divorce. I get told that there are other men out there who aren't as useless with their children.

In real life, every woman I know, faces something similar. Mainly responsible for everything to do with kids and house, works full time most of the time too.

Husband works hard, but doesn't contribute to looking after the kids or household. Complains of not enough sex.

The women I know are highly educated and in successful careers. We all feel stitched up. We were told if we study hard and are in successful careers, we wouldn't end up being slaves to our husbands and children.

What happened to the men our parents raised ? For them to expect women to still be like their mothers ? Doing everything for kids and family.

Mothers and mothers in law in general ( even though they raised us to be successful career women with choices ) don't have a whole lot of sympathy as it seems a raise to the bottom and ' how much harder ' it was for them.

I realise I'm generalising

A woman who grew up seeing their mother, grandmother and female neighbours acting like that, will need far more than “not being stupid” to break out of that conditioning.

I mean of course you can leave etc but it’s not a simple calculation once kids are in the picture. I think if every woman carrying a somewhat useless man just up and left the divorce rate would be a lot higher than 40ish percent.

My observation on men “changing” when kids come along is that some men are selfish, and that pre kids, when you both have much more time to do your own stuff that is much less visible. That certainly happened with my husband - when I look back I can see the pattern but it wasn’t a problem for us pre kids as we weren’t having to trade off time in the same way. It wasn’t until we had to start to make those trade offs - and every time he chose himself and I chose what worked for kids/family that the problem emerged. Our marriage really went to the brink (and yes I had to basically threaten leaving) before DH really understood the seriousness of the issue. That doesn’t seem unusual amongst my friends.

Finally on the having multiple kids thing - I have several friends who have been open about seeing it the lesser of two evils to complete their family despite a useless DH. If you are going to split, their logic was that better to have all the kids rather than leaving with the aspiration to meet and have another one with a new man. It seems a high risk strategy to me, but I do see the logic of it in a weird way.

Then, again, it becomes your responsibility to assign chores and monitor they have been completed (even if that means realising he didn’t get the toilet paper or left it in his car when you need it)

I’m meant to have a conversation like this this weekend, he thinks we can sort it if I “tell him what needs doing”. I have had enough of that… I’m thinking that if he doesn’t come with his own ideas, and plenty of them, he will be single by Monday.

Strong disagree.
The patriarchy and misogyny only see women’s value as being a wife and a mother.
We still have a very long way to see women being valuable just as human beings.

It’s misogyny to think women only matter if they are mothers, or that women who have children are better people.

That is extremely old fashioned way of thinking, belongs in the dark ages.

Feminism is about seeing women equal, just as valuable as men have always been.
It has nothing to do with motherhood, nevermind putting mothers on a pedastal.
That’s, again, patriarchy.

How would they know they deserve better though? What about the women who don't know they deserve better, or that better is possible, or who are not rich enough or physically superhumanly fit enough to cope with looking after children alone while working long hours while coping with the extreme emotional distress of a breakup? Are they to blame too?

Feminism is about seeing women equal, just as valuable as men have always been.

No, feminism is about improving things for women. That's different to aiming for equality.

Another that’s assumed it’s not a joint process…

Its really sad that so many see this as a performance management style ‘write, assign, and monitor’.

The house/life isn’t my sole responsibility, why would I do this solo? It’s like some ppl (M&F) have been conditioned to think this?

Goid luck for the weekend. Maybe start off with ‘what do you think needs doing?’

This isn’t how my convo goes, either one of us will be ‘we need to work out what we are doing about y, shall we make a list over dinner?’

I am a very ardent feminist and feminism is very much about motherhood as well as fatherhood. It's about valuing caring in our society.

Nobody ever pretended it was about women 'only' being mothers so you're creating a straw woman argument there. But feminism is very much about countering patriarchal hatred of motherhood, of what's seen as 'women's work' — the most valuable work in society and the poorest paid.

Women are oppressed for their bodies, for their reproductive function. Any idealisation of motherhood comes with the splitting mother -whore hatred and is one if the reasons some men change once they have babies.

Has anyone copied this yet
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic

It's unhelpful to call it blame but you need to know you have a problem before you can fix the problem. You cannot just ostrich and get offended every time someone points out that you might be able to do something about it. Actions have consequences.

By hearing it from others.

Lots of us didn't realise we deserved better (in whatever area of life) or how to go about doing that until later than was ideal. In a lot of cases it wasn't our parents but friends, mentors and older women who gave us that advice. Yet the women literally trying to pass along the message that it doesn't have to be shit, you have power over your own destiny and there are non-selfish men out there are getting shouted down on this thread.

Yes, better to moan endlessly and inaccurately about how men are inherently lazy and selfish (are those traits found in the testicles, I wonder) and let's all bond over how much we hate our husbands and call that feminism.

That’s excellent @ssd.

When this convo has come up (in company not at home) I’ve been known to say ‘my Fanny didn’t come loaded with a thinking tool’.

It’s really interesting seeing some responses above ‘I bet you had to buy the bath, soap etc’ or ‘I bet you had to assign/chase’. It’s conditioning I think.

Obviously we have to ask each other questions sometimes but the positioning is different, I’m struggling to think of when I last had to ask my DH to do something…

I guess I told him yest and kind of asked to go to bed as he got in but I wasn’t asking permission, moreso courtesy. I also didn’t need to leave any instructions…

that guardian piece - I find the ‘you didn’t ask me’ HUGELY insulting. It’s like there’s no engagement with the home?

My mum didn't do much around the house when I was younger she made meals and maybe washed clothes. She worked 2 hours a day and looked after me and my brother. My dad had 3 jobs and he was the cleaner at home. My husband was brought up with a very strict mum who cleans constantly hes the same. So he can do housework and make meals but it's a different story when it come to the kids.
His mother was visiting a family member recently she doesn't live close to us. He went shopping with her was out 6 hours. I have no problem with that but when I went to go out not in school hours I have to ask for him to watch our child. When my child was younger I used to get phone calls saying I needed to get back sons nappy needs changing. I have had 4 children and he's never changed a nappy all my responsibility.

Sal

This is why I'm single.
Unfortunately lots if women don't even realise this is even happening to them because they are so often reminded that their husband is a "good one" due to having a job or not cheating (that they know of).
The bar is so low!
If he builds something in the garden he a genius (actually he's having fun and learning skills while you take care of his kids).
Someone recently told me I should be grateful because my brother in law is going to fit me a new kitchen.
I'm grateful to my sister who will be parenting alone while he does it.
He's getting paid for the work she isn't.

That's what we're here for and why we're needed. A PP was criticising us for coming along and saying that women shouldn't put up with it and there are better men out there that will respect you. We were branded the NAMALT brigade but in reality we're trying to help those who feel trapped.

Without a contrary opinion, this thread would just consist of women feeling depressed about their situation. We're saying it doesn't have to be so.

All you're doing and have done throughout this thread is to make every excuse as to why women CAN'T. And this is feminism????

We're saying that you CAN. And I don't even consider myself a feminist.

That's really sad. Makes me appreciate my wife that we have been together and raised 2 to adult and still have great times. I think the secret is we do a lot together. She joins me in my work and I join her in hers. I wouldn't want my daughter to be with a man who was like this and it concerns me if there are a lot of man babies out there. Any tips on how to spot them so I can warn her early.

And that would include childfree/childless women. Not just mothers.

Patriarchy doesn’t hate motherhood, that’s silly.
Patriarchy gets angry if woman chooses NOT yo have children, so what you’re saying doesn’t even make sense.

most valuable work in society and the poorest paid.

But it’s not though.
This is just some odd power fantasy of a mother, who needs to put themselves on a pedestal. You’re just human, you’re no better than anyone else.

Women are oppressed for their bodies, for their reproductive function.

This I do agree (perhaps for different reasons)
Misogyny is when people/society get angry if and when woman chooses not to use their bodies to continue patriarchy / keep up the status quo. I.e not having sex or not having children.
Have you ever listen to / read what people say about single /celibate/ childfree women, that’s where you see misogyny and oppression.

Yes I'm one for assigning chores too.

My friends think my husband is amazing at the splitting of jobs in the house 50/50 because he cleans, he cooks, bring the kids to school and activities and does the shopping when he is TOLD very time what's needed from him.

The reality is I feel like a PA. Its still not equal as if I'm not the one planning and monitoring as he he just wouldn't do it like he can't see a disaster of a mess unfolding. This causes a lot of anger sometimes in me. It's a real mental load. I want someone to tell ME what to do to have a functioning home/ kids so I can relax.
Someone else planing camps, presents, wekends, what's needed in the fridge, extra curricular activities, the windows or fridge need a cleaned, and looking at the logistics to make it happen. I also assign chores to the kids. Appart from my full time job I have to plan, assign and monitor things are done every single week for everyone. The monitoring is exhausting too.

I do think he is genuinely lost. His dad did fuck all in the house and his mum was a devoted housewife. I fully belive DH needs to be told because he is lost. Looking at his mother its like understanding where everything comes from.

@girlswillbegirls So he is a grown man but it’s still his mothers fault that he isn’t fully engaged with the house?

What would happen if you just left the shopping to him? Or a simple ‘what do you think needs to be done, let’s divvy it’?
just actions to change this behaviour, does he have to be micromanaged at work? And if not, why so at home?

Thanks @Yea2023

Fair point. But in his case it's his mother's fault. MIL is one of the most misogynistic people I've ever met. Nearly in every conversation she how women belong to the home and are naturally good at it. And men are men, running the world and basically deserving their pampering after a hardest day work. The past is for her, so much better.
His dad dint move a finger. She is proud of this fact. I think my husband had a terrible role model at home with his parents.

DH can also see and acknoledge how all that was crap as his dad ended up being very ill long term with many children and they had no money following this house of the prairie model, the one his mum is so proud of.

MIL still defends how women shouldn't be out there earning money having a carrer and basically wanting the same as men. After all the financial disaster she experienced.

From my very limited research of friends and family, the ones with both working parents in the 80s and 90s have husband's a lot more clued in taking the initiative at home. Because they say that in their dad's every single day. It's what you see.

@girlswillbegirls so why have you chosen to have children with a man like that, knowing that you are modelling the very same dynamic to them?

Will you be happy to be blamed for the relationships your children end up in, as you are happy to blame your adult husband’s behaviour on his mother?

Fhs! My dh contributes loads to the household but I loathe it when the word “martyr” is used to describe and blame women!

First, because it is really disrespectful to women who have really tried to set up a 50/50 situation and their dh’s have refused to play along. It isn’t the women’s fault if her previously cooperative and active dh turns in to a grifter post pregnancy!

And second because it’s not all one or the other. Surely it’s possible to comprehend that lots of individual women on Mumsnet are in uniquely different situations?

Nope, most women do the majority of that too (I do)

I have been doing the “joint process” of carrying the mental load for years! Women are allowed to give up you know?