There are two sexes…

[ItJustFellOutLikeWordVomit]

Well just that really….I have gay, straight, bi sexual and transsexual friends and absolutely have no problem with that, very much a do what makes you happy person.

Butttt….AIBU to think the world is going a bit mad with all the non-female, cis female and whatever other labels are floating about. I’m a woman and that’s that, you are either biologically a male or biologically a female and I don’t mean that in an insensitive way dress how you like and date who you like but surely we can’t just be inventing different/new sexes and telling straight women they are no longer a woman they are now XYZ?

I'm off to watch Star Trek because I'm beginning to think that I'm on a different planet.

I think there may have been ST episode in which there were more than 2 sexes, actually. But meanwhile back on Earth...

They're all sitting bleating "XX good; XY better" over and over again.

So many of them claim that they are better "women" than women are because they have chosen womanhood - not like we women who have been born this way (or have had it thrust upon us).

Why are some people so determined to stay stupid?

You said " let them present as and think of themselves as women. They are not really though."

I'd just love to see you tell this mother, who had regular menstrual cycles and carried a pregnancy to term, that she is "not really" a woman.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5885995/

And it is just as insulting as cretin, idiot and mongol are - but you'll probably have to shout louder, as those at the back are too busy being victimised to listen.

I'm sick of TRAs using the term - it's demeaning to people with those conditions. They aren't an anomalous heap, nor are they a halfway house between the sexes.

Has it been mentioned that too often those cultures who 'recognised' a third 'gender' are actually homophobic? And that the males who are 'othered' are homosexual?

I get cross when asked "what sex/gender?" do you identify with?
M&S, I'm looking at you.

I always reply that I do not identify with either, because "I am a woman". In block capitals, + bold & underlined if possible.

Biological sex matters. Sex is a suite of characteristics that in the majority of people means they can be observed (not "assigned") either male or female, including in many cases of disorders of sex development. For example XY female is female. A small minority of people are not clearly male or female. Humans can change sex by medical procedures. The law should recognise sex and pay no regard to "gender".

There, that should offend everyone.

People can say they’re a woman and that’s nice but the true physical and mental issues of being a woman are only experienced by actual women.

Thank you.

It's no diff to that white woman pretending she was black, and duping everyone in the process. Yes, you might find it pretty 'cool' to be black but you've not had the tribulations that a black person has. As a black person, I cannot understand why anyone would willingly choose to be at the bottom of the food chain (broadly speaking, in a socio-economic sense).

I guess when you have privilege to fall back on, being a minority/female is probably more like playing dress up, whist enjoying the good bits and conveniently skirting over the bad bits. It's fucked up.

Caster is male, because he’s also has an intersex condition they thought he was female at birth. The clue that he is male can be deduced by his XY chromosomes. It’s also the reason he’s banned from certain women’s races.

So for the 52 people who are saying that people born with DSD are a third sex? (I’m not saying I believe that) or do any of you think it’s a possibility to change your sex (your actual sex not your appearance/life style)? If all agreeable that the latter can’t happen then surely no need to be calling anyone a cis woman because they are a woman not a man and it’s as simple as that? Again not saying you can’t be a trans man or woman you do you but you can’t change your actual sex if I/you like it or not, there are no variations on actual sex.

For anyone interested, I think this is one of the examples SmartHome is referring to.

Caster: "I grew up with boys, everything was all about boys. Girls were a little bit boring to me because they're too soft."
Female presenter: "So you think I'm soft?"
Caster: "I think you're soft, of course."

shatteredmum1

How do you know that Semenya has a vagina?

Caster Semenya has 5ARD, it is recorded as evidence for their court case to be allowed to compete over the past few years. 5ARD is only a male condition. It is not a female condition.

Please though, link up the evidence that Semenya has a vagina? I believe though that Semenya had undescended testes. It is irrelevant whether Semenya had any sort of vaginal opening. That 'vagina' never was part of a female reproductive system.

"Her treatment by various sporting authorities and judgement from the ignorant public has been truly shocking.Her treatment by various sporting authorities and judgement from the ignorant public has been truly shocking."

Sadly, it seems that you are the ignorant person here. And it is truly shocking that you would support a person who has been proven to have experienced male puberty, due to those testes that they have, to take the records, acclaim and financial benefit that should have always gone to an outstanding female athlete.

Some people are born intersex. This is extremely rare and not through choice.

@EctopicSpleen that has, as far as I am aware, only ever happened once? And this was a surrogate situation of course, as the person did not have gonads or gametes. They were not, biologically, a mother.

I still contend that we should not be calling an XY chromosome individual a woman, as the biological definition of a woman is an adult human without a Y chromosome. (Obviouly other definitions have existed in the past as we did not always know about the chromosomes, but I would contend that this person would not fall within those definitions either eg human with large immobile gametes, of which this person had none).

This unbelievably rare case does not in my opinion lead to the concusion that we should change our definition of what sex is.

Karyotyping was invented in 1955!

I just give up on trying to explain about the use of the term intersex...

To most people there are males and females and an extremely rare condition where both body parts although smaller or underdeveloped but the XX XY XXY etc denote male by having a Y in the chromosomes and without Y is female.

However, the TRA will tell you that there are lots of different alphabet soup people and sex is like a rainbow or spectrum and confusing lots of kids and a few handmaidens as well. Gender is a social construct and whilst you might be more or less masculine or feminine (going on stereotypical ideas) or non binary or fe fi fo fum or one of the hundred or so other variants that apparently children or adults with a mental health issue can pick from nowadays.

Be who you want to be but keep the men out of the women's sports/prisons/safe spaces/rape centres etc etc and keep the status of biological sex according to XX XY and life would rock along much easier. The push into women's spaces by men is the problem and men would have women move over for them rather than use men's spaces or create a third space.... therein lies the problem.

It's very deliberate and not worth the effort of correcting

Apologies if I am repeating posts. This thread is moving fast and I have read much of it. But it seems to need repeating if it has been posted.

A female human, is a human with the body formed around the production of large gametes, or ova. This categorisation works reliably regardless of whether that production has ever happen, will ever happen or is currently happening. This requires the body formation around ovaries.

There may have been a handful of human beings with chimerism where they ended up with both. But that is because their body has developed with a part of another human's cells inside their body where those cells are not supposed to be. I think there is one recorded case of this where if I remember there was an internal teste (that I don't believe worked) and an ovary.

No human with a difference of development has both working testes and working ova production capability. With modern medical testing all human beings are reliably able to be categorised as male or female. Even mature human beings.

Using any human with a DSD condition as some kind of gotcha to destabilise the absolute reliability of 'there are only two sexes' is offensive and othering.

And there are not 1.7% of the world's population with a DSD. That number is false. It is around 0.18%. Because the higher number includes female people and male people with issues from birth that are not actually a DSD where their sex needs to be tested because of ambiguous genitalia. For instance the male people in that wider number simply have the opening of their urethra displaced on their penis. That is all. That is not ambiguous genitalia.

There is no 'third' sex. There is no third gamete. There is no third sex for any reproduction purposes.

Even one of the often misquoted authors of a paper that people cite as evidence, Claire Ainsworth clarified, there are two sexes. There is plenty of body variation within each sex. But only two sexes.

What proof do you have that Semenya has a vagina?

And the example given re Lady Colin Campbell is interesting because according to her, there was no confusion over whether she was male or female, either to her parents or doctors. They knew she was a female with a DSD, but thought in the case of babies with ambiguous genitals that as they'd been given a raw deal in life they should get given a break by being recorded and treated as male, the superior sex. So even though she was raised as male, the adults knew she was female with a DSD. There was no confusion or mistake, but a deliberate choice to say.she was male. Because male is better.

On the (vanishingly rare) issue of Swyer syndrome (or other DSDs which mean that a person with a Y chromosome does not have male testosterone levels OR male sexual characteristics) I actually would be fine with them being in my loos or my prison tbh. They are genetically men but do not pose the threat to me that other men do. So OK, if you are one of those people, I will be prepared to make an exception for you. It doesn't mean I have to change the definition of woman though, or say that there is a third sex. It just means that sometimes you have to make exceptions in very rare circumstances.

For anyone wanting an explanation of the 1.7% figure:

https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/intersex-is-not-as-common-as-red