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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

There are two sexes…

635 replies

ItJustFellOutLikeWordVomit · 23/06/2023 13:34

Well just that really….I have gay, straight, bi sexual and transsexual friends and absolutely have no problem with that, very much a do what makes you happy person.

Butttt….AIBU to think the world is going a bit mad with all the non-female, cis female and whatever other labels are floating about. I’m a woman and that’s that, you are either biologically a male or biologically a female and I don’t mean that in an insensitive way dress how you like and date who you like but surely we can’t just be inventing different/new sexes and telling straight women they are no longer a woman they are now XYZ?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
SmartHome · 23/06/2023 15:57

Being a woman isn't an idea. It's reality.

NoClueAboutDecorating · 23/06/2023 15:58

Mamabear04 · 23/06/2023 13:47

Some people are intersex so there are three sexes, female, male and intersex. Gender is a whole other story.

Intersex people are still either genetically male or genetically female. Even XXY/ XYY etc. are still either male or female.

ditalini · 23/06/2023 15:59

Anskl · 23/06/2023 15:50

🙄

Yeah. That reads as really sciencey. Except once you cut out all the waffle it's basically saying what most posters on here have said ("you grew a penis aged 12" refers to the DSD that Semenya has - author of that tract makes it sound like you change sex aged 12, but obviously that's crap - you were always male but if you were born in a country with underfunded & underdeveloped health services they might not have noticed until puberty.)

Your sex at conception will be your sex for all of your life. A few people may need some investigations to find out what that sex is. A few people may be happier living as the sex they resemble rather than their chromosomal sex and that's fine.

Terven · 23/06/2023 15:59

Mamabear04 · 23/06/2023 13:47

Some people are intersex so there are three sexes, female, male and intersex. Gender is a whole other story.

Do you think they’re hermaphrodites? If Show me a person in this world who managed to produce a child both as a male and female.

SmartHome · 23/06/2023 15:59

Sceptic1234 · 23/06/2023 15:57

I don't know, it could be ....... but I don't think so. Testosterone has some activity before its metabolized by 5ARD and the enzyme is important in adults. ...it may be that so much is produced around puberty that it exerts a relatively small biological effect.

But in general....the whole basis of these DSDs is insensitivity to testosterone. You can get mutations in the testosterone receptor itself which give a complete insensitivity.

You're wrong I am afraid. There are a whole range of DSDs, with different causes and presentations and different sensitivity levels to different hormones - between types of DSD as well as within individuals with a particular DSD. Human genetics and endicronlogy is extremely complex and nuanced, as you yourself should know.

FOJN · 23/06/2023 16:00

Begsthequestion · 23/06/2023 15:50

Thanks for replying.

As you don't really have a gender identity, do you ever feel like you can't really relate to the idea of being a woman? Does it ever make you feel uncomfortable, or like it's less apt a term than it is for someone who does feel like they have a (female) gender identity?

How do you "feel like a woman"?

No one can feel like a woman because no one knows how other people we have reproductive systems in common with feel. We can only feel like ourselves.

nothingcomestonothing · 23/06/2023 16:01

suggestionsplease1 · 23/06/2023 15:48

And you could maybe look up all the intersex organisations whose members are quite happily using that term with respect to DSDs.

You didn't read the link, did you?
This bit, for example:

'Although some adults reject any medicalisation of variant sex development, especially when this is described as a disorder, many others living with variations of sex development, as well as their parents and health professionals, feel that the term intersex is also inappropriate and increases a sense of stigma and isolation. https://www.europeanurology.com/article/S0302-2838(16)30179-8/fulltext This is illustrated by only 5% of women with classical CAH feeling like they are part of the intersex community https://www.jpurol.com/article/S1477-5131(20)30536-2/pdf – and recent research showing that only 10% of young people either like or use the term. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2021.1899529 Research from DSD-life also found intersex to be the most problematic term when patients were offered a choice between intersex, disorders of sex development and differences of sex development. https://www.dsd-life.eu/fileadmin/websites/dsd-life/images/Flyer/lay_abstract_terminology_Final.pdf   
More recent research, again found that intersex was the most problematic term and that the preferred umbrella term was variations of sex development. https://www.auajournals.org/doi/10.1097/JU.0000000000001076
However, although the term intersex is not used by most people born with a variation of sex development, many activist and support groups have intersex as part of their name – and can be critical or even hostile to anyone using DSD terminology. (Emphasis mine).

NoClueAboutDecorating · 23/06/2023 16:01

Sistanotcista · 23/06/2023 13:50

Exactly this. Look up Caster Semenya for a real life example.

Caster Semenya is genetically male. I thought this was widely known by now. Can't believe people still think there’s another alternative. This is why science in schools shouldn’t how to bow down to gender belief and should stick to science.

Outofthepark · 23/06/2023 16:02

Supernova23 · 23/06/2023 13:40

Yes it’s all woke nonsense.

Jesus wept. You're sending us all backwards saying this.

Woke means woke to discrimination - like being woke to the fact that 'there are multiple sexes' is discrimination - a way of shitting on and disempowering women.

It's not woke people, it's men, right wing media, Piers Morgan etc. Don't blame the wrong people else it'll be impossible to fight back. In fact, woke people are the only ones protecting women here!

slashlover · 23/06/2023 16:02

Butttt….AIBU to think the world is going a bit mad with all the non-female, cis female and whatever other labels are floating about.

Are you new here OP? There seem to be a lot of threads asking this on AIBU, as if MN are ever going to say YABU.

IloveRickyGervaisAndHisTeeth · 23/06/2023 16:04

SummerLovingg · 23/06/2023 13:42

Some people are born neither male or female.

😂😂Ridiculous

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 23/06/2023 16:04

Sistanotcista · 23/06/2023 13:50

Exactly this. Look up Caster Semenya for a real life example.

Well, I have.
Caster is a male with a rare disorder which means that they produce less testosterone than the average male. His chromosomes are XY , so he is male.

Caster was accepted as female based solely on testosterone levels. He/she has spoken of socialising and playing with boys and men, and finding women ‘soft’ . Caster’s physique is typically masculine.

Caster has a female wife and two biological children, for which he provided the male gamete.

it would have been possible to supply the deficiency with testosterone, but the Sporting Authorities found more advantage in Caster competing against XX women.

Sceptic1234 · 23/06/2023 16:05

SmartHome · 23/06/2023 15:59

You're wrong I am afraid. There are a whole range of DSDs, with different causes and presentations and different sensitivity levels to different hormones - between types of DSD as well as within individuals with a particular DSD. Human genetics and endicronlogy is extremely complex and nuanced, as you yourself should know.

I'm talking about androgen insensitivity when I said "these DSDs" i meant androgen insensitivity.

IloveRickyGervaisAndHisTeeth · 23/06/2023 16:05

Terven · 23/06/2023 15:59

Do you think they’re hermaphrodites? If Show me a person in this world who managed to produce a child both as a male and female.

Male, Female. They are the only 2 genders, there is no other, no matter what anyone says

EctopicSpleen · 23/06/2023 16:07

Biologically speaking, there's your genotype and phenotype. If they agree, then you are biologically what they say you are. What you self-identify as doesn't matter to biology. So if you have a Y chromosome and were born with a willy. then you are a man. You are welcome as far as many of us are concerned to call yourself Bertha and wear a dress but all the denial of reality in the world won't make you biologically female.
There is something like 1 in 1000 where the phenotype is not clearly identifiable at birth or where the phenotype doesn't match the genotype. These are the biologically ambiguous cases. They exist. That shouldn't be denied either. Biology is a bit more flexible than most people seem to think. Platypuses have 5 X and 5 Y chromosomes. Imagine the woke wars they could have.
A family member works with someone who self-identifies as a unicorn. I kid you not. Now THAT is taking the piss.

GabriellaMontez · 23/06/2023 16:07

Clementineorsatsuma · 23/06/2023 15:15

The same number of people are born intersex as are left handed. Fact.
It's the most common reason for infertility.
It may not be obvious to the person and many only find out that they are intersex when trying for a baby.

🤣🤣🤣🤣. Fact.

Sceptic1234 · 23/06/2023 16:08

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 23/06/2023 16:04

Well, I have.
Caster is a male with a rare disorder which means that they produce less testosterone than the average male. His chromosomes are XY , so he is male.

Caster was accepted as female based solely on testosterone levels. He/she has spoken of socialising and playing with boys and men, and finding women ‘soft’ . Caster’s physique is typically masculine.

Caster has a female wife and two biological children, for which he provided the male gamete.

it would have been possible to supply the deficiency with testosterone, but the Sporting Authorities found more advantage in Caster competing against XX women.

Simply not true....caused by a genetic defect in an enzyme that metabolises testosterone. Cannot be treated simply by giving more.

There are cases of low testosterone (e.g. hypo gonadism) which can be treated as you describe.

ClawedButler · 23/06/2023 16:08

Are there actually people here arguing that your sex determines your personality? That if you were wrongly sexed at/before birth and correctly sexed at a later time, you'd need to change your personality?

Really?

FourTeaFallOut · 23/06/2023 16:09

I'm feeling a bit pink brain today, I put on my pink clothes, drive my pink car, do my pink work, eat my pink food, speak to my children in a really pink way, do my pink exercises, take my medicine throughout the day- which makes me feel a bit dysphoric because respiratory illnesses aren't very feminine - but then I read a pink book and I'm feeling like a real woman again.

None of this is regressive. Repeat after me. This is progress.

ClawedButler · 23/06/2023 16:09

Spot on, @FourTeaFallOut

Silverseas1 · 23/06/2023 16:10

IMHO, I believe if a man feels like women, or a woman feels like a man, they shoud feel free to identify with exactly how they feel. I do seriously object to the nonsense surrounding the opposition to certain words in order to accommodate people who wish to change the English language and how we relate to each other etc to suit their own personal agenda. There are people who can't stand coriander. Should we suggest it should be removed from all recipes and further more, dump the word although I'm sure many including me would agree 😂

Hidinginaonesie · 23/06/2023 16:11

There are two sexes. There’s xx and there’s xy. People with dsd do not have ‘xz’ chromosomes.
There is no such thing.

Begsthequestion · 23/06/2023 16:11

ItJustFellOutLikeWordVomit · 23/06/2023 15:46

I would say if you would feel more comfortable to dress as a male try that and if makes you happy dress as a man full time speak to a GP about what hormones without rushing into anything and after speaking to professionals take it as far as makes you happy but this doesn’t change your sex your organs are still your organs and there are only 2 sets available you are born with one of the two and that can’t be changed

Thanks for replying.

Clothing is a complicated one for me. I definitely don't want to be/feel like I am a man. I feel more female if I have to choose. But the idea of "being a woman" confuses me.

I feel very comfortable in masculine clothing most days (not just unfeminine/unisex clothing like jeans and t-shirts), like masculine cut shirts, trousers, jewellery etc. And not just physically comfortable, but more like myself. I usually wear mascara but I was basically raised to do that and feel kind of ugly without it.

Occasionally I'm ok with dressing in feminine clothing (but never heels) but it's an unpredictable thing, which is why I can rarely choose my outfit the night before an event because idk how I will feel when I get up in the morning. Putting on a dress or a woman's-cut top feels really weird sometimes, quite wrong.

I know clothing is just surface but as social animals it's how we present ourselves to each other and the world, and it seems to matter.

Can anyone else relate?

suggestionsplease1 · 23/06/2023 16:12

nothingcomestonothing · 23/06/2023 16:01

You didn't read the link, did you?
This bit, for example:

'Although some adults reject any medicalisation of variant sex development, especially when this is described as a disorder, many others living with variations of sex development, as well as their parents and health professionals, feel that the term intersex is also inappropriate and increases a sense of stigma and isolation. https://www.europeanurology.com/article/S0302-2838(16)30179-8/fulltext This is illustrated by only 5% of women with classical CAH feeling like they are part of the intersex community https://www.jpurol.com/article/S1477-5131(20)30536-2/pdf – and recent research showing that only 10% of young people either like or use the term. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2021.1899529 Research from DSD-life also found intersex to be the most problematic term when patients were offered a choice between intersex, disorders of sex development and differences of sex development. https://www.dsd-life.eu/fileadmin/websites/dsd-life/images/Flyer/lay_abstract_terminology_Final.pdf   
More recent research, again found that intersex was the most problematic term and that the preferred umbrella term was variations of sex development. https://www.auajournals.org/doi/10.1097/JU.0000000000001076
However, although the term intersex is not used by most people born with a variation of sex development, many activist and support groups have intersex as part of their name – and can be critical or even hostile to anyone using DSD terminology. (Emphasis mine).

I did read the link actually. And of course there are other studies showing intersex as a preferred term.

But most sensible researchers conclude that people with personal experience are entitled to use the language that sits most comfortably for them and ask that others use it in reference to them, and that it is not appropriate for others to be prescriptive, as is what is happening on this thread.