To not find the labels "pro-life" and "pro-choice" useful

[Middlelanehogger]

My position is that over the course of a 9-month pregnancy, the "thing" inside the womb transforms gradually from a ball of cells with value 0 (on the first day of conception) to a fully-grown baby (in the minutes just before it exits the birth canal).

There are some significant milestones, for me personally somewhere around 12 weeks after the risk of miscarriage dramatically lessens, and somewhere around 24 weeks when the baby is viable, but that doesn't lessen the "gradual" development of the life inside.

I don't have an issue with the current decrim legal framework in the UK. I think it's fine. I think abortion is sad and is taking a life. I think sometimes that's justified. I think even if it's sad, I'd rather the procedure be in the light of day with medical care. I think the closer you get to the end of the pregnancy the more the life inside starts to count in ethical calculations, such that there is an almost smooth transition for the rights of a baby 1h before birth vs 1h afterwards. I think it's similar to killing puppies - it's really sad, sometimes necessary, should be regulated, shouldn't be a free-for-all...

So I don't count as pro-choice or pro-life. But I don't think my position is all that different from a lot of people's.

It really concerns me that people want to push this "pro-choice means as late as necessary for any reason and that's the only feminist position" thing. It will damage our current status quo.

Aibu?

Even if it makes you sad, you're still in support of women having a choice. You're pro-choice.

It may vary from person to person in the pro-choice camp as to how long that choice should be the woman's choice, but it is still very clear cut to me in that sense.

Pro-life is the opposite. They do not believe a woman should have a choice at any point in pregnancy.

I'm not pro choice though - I don't think women's choices should apply much later

You are pro choice. Believing the option should exist makes you pro choice.

Most people think of it as you're either pro choice or you are pro life. But pro life is an extreme view, it's true opposite would be pro abortion, where you believe EVERY pregnancy should be aborted.

When positioned like, that it's easier to see backwards pro life stance is.

I would describe your position as pro-choice. It's also a very common position- most people in the UK support abortion but subject to restrictions and the plurality think our current system is about right.

The terminology is difficult, I agree.
I believe that a woman should be able to choose to not be pregnant at any point in her pregnancy.
That doesn’t always translate to killing the fetus first though if that makes sense. For that reason, I agree with the current law.

Those saying "as late as necessary" are highly unlikely to be suggesting women can suddenly decide at 36 weeks they just don't fancy being pregnant any more. Cases of very late term abortions where there aren't medical reasons are vanishingly rare, hence why they are so widely publicised - very ordinary occurrences don't make the news.

"As late as necessary" is a way to push against the erosion of choice. What about the woman who doesn't find out until post 12 weeks that she is pregnant? What about the life limiting disability discovered post 24 weeks due to scan difficulties? These "what abouts" can continue forever, and "as late as necessary" recognises there isn't a one size fits all solution.

Equally, the status quo can't be relied upon - you only have to look at the US to see this. So on balance I'd rather a vocal opposition to any form of tightening abortion rules (even if this includes those calling for a relaxation of rules) to help prevent a situation similar to that facing these poor women in the US.

Where you see "as late as necessary", it is usually prefaced with "as early as possible".

I hate the term pro life as the opposite is pro death.

a pregnancy and baby affects a woman’s life and it should be up to her to have the autonomy to make the choice, whatever the circumstances, just as men have autonomy over their own bodies and lives. Complicating it beyond this is just unnecessary.

I think abortion is sad and is taking a life. I think sometimes that's justified.

This is the position I find most disturbing of all.

I agree with your last paragraph though.

As I said, pro-choice people do not all believe women should be able to abort a pregnancy at any point. You're still pro-choice.

I wouldn't be in support of a woman that wanted to abort a pregnancy at 6 months just because she didn't fancy going through with it anymore for instance (highly unlikely to occur). I'm still pro-choice. It covers a wide range of perspectives but the divide is very simple.

The problem is really with the pro life terminology. These people are not pro life when you consider how many women die through backstreet abortions when abortion is illegal. Or how many women have died when an abortion would have saved their lives. Pro life people are pro forced childbirth and pro controlling women. And in the USA then tend to also be the idiots who think the answer to school shootings is more guns - really caring about life aren't they.

This.

Also this.

As much as there are problems with the pro choice/ pro life definitions the alternative which is usually pitted as pro or anti abortion is worse.
People who are pro choice are not pro abortion.
Personally I don’t think I would ever have had an abortion, that’s just my personal belief but I don’t believe that gives me the right to dictate the choice another woman makes.
I don’t believe forcing her to carry a baby is the humane or loving thing to do.
Particularly growing up somewhere abortion was illegal and the trauma that occurred with an unwanted pregnancy I could never reconcile forcing a pregnancy with being the ‘moral’ side of the argument.

I also think throwing out late term abortions is disingenuous really. I can’t imagine any woman goes through with a pregnancy until 30 weeks or whatever and then just decides to get an abortion willynilly. It’s just not a large problem that people like to suggest.

I am happy with the abortion laws we currently have. I would describe myself as pro choice, but thought that woman who went to jail recently was certainly 100% in the wrong. She knew full well she was beyond 24 weeks. She had no reason to believe the baby wasn’t perfectly healthy. That baby could have lived a happy life with adoptive parents.

I'm with you OP. I'm "pro having a number of choices, but not completely unlimited choices". I'm become more pro-life the closer the baby gets to being alive.

But politicians like making complicated issues overly simplistic, and drawing battle lines, and polarising the population.

Also you only have to look at NI to see that abortion being illegal doesn’t stop it from happening. All that happens is young girls buy dodgy pills from the internet, or women go through a much more traumatic event than necessary by embarking on an expensive last minute trip to England with little support.

Except a woman doesn’t currently have the right to insist, after the 24 week limit for abortion, that she be induced so that she no longer has to be pregnant. And she absolutely should, even if that comes with significant risks to the foetus through being born very prematurely.

The terms could be better. You're either pro-choice or anti-choice. I hate the term 'pro-life'.

Totally agree, but I also agree with the OP.

pro-choice and anti-choice make the most sense to me. People against abortions certainly aren't pro-life in my view.

I don't believe there should be a law, it should be between a woman and medical professionals. Late abortions would continue to be rare even if it wasn't against the law.

I think supporting abortion within limits is still pro choice. Supporting abortion for any reason up until birth sounds insane to me, and I am sure it does to most people. The UK does allow abortion to term, but for very serious and tragic reasons. It does not allow it for any reason, and I think that's right.

If she should have the right to insist on an induction after 24 weeks despite the risk to the foetus then why not an abortion?

She should have the right to kill her unborn child when that child has a chance of life? Really? I disagree.

You are pro choice if you think women should be given a choice. That's it. You'll find that many, possibly most pro choice people still believe that there should be some sort of limit. It's mostly the anti-choice people who are trying to frame the pro-choicers as being 100% against any form of limit or regulation.

As an aside, I keep seeing people in abortion debates saying that babies are viable at 24 weeks. While some do survive at 24 weeks, the majority sadly do not.

I am pro choice. But I think everything should be done to prevent pregnancy in first place, and therefore we need better and easily accessible contraception options.