To not find the labels "pro-life" and "pro-choice" useful

[Middlelanehogger]

My position is that over the course of a 9-month pregnancy, the "thing" inside the womb transforms gradually from a ball of cells with value 0 (on the first day of conception) to a fully-grown baby (in the minutes just before it exits the birth canal).

There are some significant milestones, for me personally somewhere around 12 weeks after the risk of miscarriage dramatically lessens, and somewhere around 24 weeks when the baby is viable, but that doesn't lessen the "gradual" development of the life inside.

I don't have an issue with the current decrim legal framework in the UK. I think it's fine. I think abortion is sad and is taking a life. I think sometimes that's justified. I think even if it's sad, I'd rather the procedure be in the light of day with medical care. I think the closer you get to the end of the pregnancy the more the life inside starts to count in ethical calculations, such that there is an almost smooth transition for the rights of a baby 1h before birth vs 1h afterwards. I think it's similar to killing puppies - it's really sad, sometimes necessary, should be regulated, shouldn't be a free-for-all...

So I don't count as pro-choice or pro-life. But I don't think my position is all that different from a lot of people's.

It really concerns me that people want to push this "pro-choice means as late as necessary for any reason and that's the only feminist position" thing. It will damage our current status quo.

Aibu?

Well if we continue to allow abortion then it doesn't negatively impact on the "pro life" they can still continue not to have abortions . But if the "pro life" get it banned then the pro choice will be negitively impacted as they will be forced to give birth against their wishes. So only one side is forcing their opnion. And telling the other side what they have to think. If you belive abortion is wrong but also belive you shouldn't get to decide what other women do their with bodies your pro choice. People can be anti abortion and can be pro choice.

Yes, I agree that there is much broader consensus on murder etc than there is abortion, but I think this is the reason why we need to be careful about labelling those with different views to ourselves as 'extremists'.

I think the best comparison I can make is possible with euthanasia. Personally I think euthanasia should be allowed provided the right checks and measures are put in place. There is a significant proportion of society that don't agree. Are they extremists because they believe in an absolute that euthanasia shouldn't be allowed? They are imposing their beliefs on me and taking away my choice and we seem capable as a society of understanding that the situation is nuanced and most people are coming from a good place with their beliefs. For some reason we just don't seem to be able to do this with abortion.

@cameoveragain I have never called a woman an incubator. I do believe we have ample provision for early terminations in the UK and that women need to make up their minds by a certain point. I do believe that when there are serious risks to either the pregnant woman or the foetus, abortion is rightly available to a later point in the UK.

But those women aren't the majority and most women seeking abortion want it other with quickly and don't want to see the scan (if they have one for their treatment) or speak about 'a baby'

That is completely different to comparing an unwanted pregnancy to some sort of alien parasitical invasion. No need for scans or talking about babies, but no need either for the weird anti human rhetoric.

I've been thinking more about this and no I don't belive I am an extremist in holding the view that murder rape and genocide etc is wrong. When I think of extremism I consider it a Minority of people, could be a large group but would be still be a minority of the people. All these things mentioned the majority of people consider wrong so that's not an extremist view.

As I understand, certain information about anomalies and health issues is not available until close to the 24 week mark. On balance, women need that information before they can make a decision about termination, therefore 24 week cut off is necessary.

The terminology is interesting. Each side sets the other side up to be anti

so you, pro choice, believes the others to be against choice and clearly that makes them wrong

the pro lifers believe the other side to be anti life, and to them clearly that’s wrong.

@cameoveragain As a female with female friends I do know how some women feel. Terminations can be the best option in cases of dv, poverty and tragic medical circumstances. None of these are easy situations, and in my experience the women would have wanted the pregnancy in better circumstances. I have not met anyone who hated the 'lump' and was happy to get rid of it, but I take your word for it there are people like this. I think you could also accept that it isn't a trivial nuisance for other women, but actually quite difficult.

I don't care if the "person" in my uterus suddenly turns into a professor with the IQ of a 30-year-old, their own hopes and dreams, and the ability to solve world hunger. They're inside the body of a living, breathing woman, and that woman should have total control over what happens inside their own organs.

I don't understand your point, sorry. I am stating that, regardless of how I feel about prem babies, 24 weeks as a cut off point is necessary to get essential medical information. Certainly more information about health issues can come to light further down the line and the UK allows termination to term in some circumstances.

I am pro whichever choice the pregnant woman wants to make. Abortion should be an option for any woman, at any time, for any reason. It's not my business to put caveats on that.

I am anti forced birth.

Fortunately extreme views such as abortion to term for any reason are not taken seriously in the UK. We do recognise the situation as more nuanced and do give women both options, and personal responsibility.

It is absolute nonsense that women don't have complete caboodle autonomy the same way men do, and the same way DEAD PEOPLE do.

Dead person who isn't an organ donor? You can't take their organs. Pregnant woman who doesn't want to be? Sure, have an abortion, but only if you jump through these complicated and specific hoops, while fitting this specific criteria.

We value lives of the unborn over the mental and physical health of actual women.

That's without even touching on the fact that the people making the laws and decisions around all of this are generally and historically men, who cannot get pregnant but are responsible for 100% of all pregnancies 😑

I'll admit I am biased but I think that pro choice is a more accurate description of the pro choice position, than pro life is of the opposite view.

I don't understand how someone can be 'pro life' if they are okay with me being required to continue with a pregnancy that will kill me. Or one that is 100% going to result in the birth of a baby who cannot survive outside the womb for more than a few hours. How is that stance pro life? In the first instance I'll be dead, so my life will be lost. In the second that baby would never have lived whether an abortion occurred or it was carried to term and died at or soon after birth, so no life either way. 'Pro life' isn't actually pro life, it's more accurate to call it anti abortion or pro forced birth or anti choice than pro life.

Pro choice is accurate, it's for women choosing whether to continue a pregnancy. Whether or not you think that choice should be allowed, the naming of the position is accurate.

I would describe myself as pro-choice. I would like to see the right to abortion on the statute books rather than as a permitted exception to abortion being illegal.

Reality is late term abortion, over 24 weeks, is pretty rare 0.1% of the total. It’s only carried out due to the foetus having severe disabilities or the mothers life being in danger. I wouldn’t have an issue with keeping restrictions on late term abortions. I think it’s a decision best left to women and their doctors.

@nothingcomestonothing I don't understand how someone can be 'pro life' if they are okay with me being required to continue with a pregnancy that will kill me.

I think that's the thing though - a very common "moderate pro-life position" is more or less that abortion shouldn't be available as a "choice", but that it should be available in certain cases only (e.g. if mother's health is in danger, or severe foetal abnormalities, etc). Not that it shouldn't be available at all.

If you're going to use examples like this, it's the equivalent of saying "pro-choicers want babies to be aborted at 36wks so mum can go on holiday".

Most people lean in a direction but aren't at the extremes.

Abortion is not legal on request in the UK which makes us distinctly less liberal than European countries you describe.

It is still under criminal law with "permitted exceptions" and requiring two doctors to say that continuing with the pregnancy will impair your physical or mental health.

For well resourced MC women the difference may be negligible - they can access the right clinic/doctors, pay for whatever is needed. That is far from true for all women.

Abortion on request and genuinely accessible to all women in the first trimester reduces the demand for later abortions.

Yes, by the same people who then want to chip away at the reasons permitted under abnormality.

Either you believe in choice or you don't. If you believe in choice but don't like the late options then I hope you are lobbying to change the law to allow abortion on request in the first trimester, better access to diagnostic scanning earlier in pregnancy etc to make sure abortions are as early as possible.

If you don't support choice then yes you are forcing a woman to give birth. Its pretty binary - you cannot prevent an abortion without forcing a woman to give birth, however you dress it up as "pro life".