To not find the labels "pro-life" and "pro-choice" useful

[Middlelanehogger]

My position is that over the course of a 9-month pregnancy, the "thing" inside the womb transforms gradually from a ball of cells with value 0 (on the first day of conception) to a fully-grown baby (in the minutes just before it exits the birth canal).

There are some significant milestones, for me personally somewhere around 12 weeks after the risk of miscarriage dramatically lessens, and somewhere around 24 weeks when the baby is viable, but that doesn't lessen the "gradual" development of the life inside.

I don't have an issue with the current decrim legal framework in the UK. I think it's fine. I think abortion is sad and is taking a life. I think sometimes that's justified. I think even if it's sad, I'd rather the procedure be in the light of day with medical care. I think the closer you get to the end of the pregnancy the more the life inside starts to count in ethical calculations, such that there is an almost smooth transition for the rights of a baby 1h before birth vs 1h afterwards. I think it's similar to killing puppies - it's really sad, sometimes necessary, should be regulated, shouldn't be a free-for-all...

So I don't count as pro-choice or pro-life. But I don't think my position is all that different from a lot of people's.

It really concerns me that people want to push this "pro-choice means as late as necessary for any reason and that's the only feminist position" thing. It will damage our current status quo.

Aibu?

The real pro-life and pro-choice positions both feel quite extreme to me. I’m very comfortable with the current status quo in the UK.

I agree pro/anti choice are the most accurate terms. On the news etc they tend use anti abortion rather than pro life.

I'm happy with the status quo in the UK. So neither pro life not pro choice. I think both ends of the extreme like to make it out to be a binary choice but actually it's not.

Those saying "as late as necessary" are highly unlikely to be suggesting women can suddenly decide at 36 weeks they just don't fancy being pregnant any more.

There 100% are people saying that. Look on recent the thread of the abortion at 34 weeks. The fetus has zero value and women deserve absolute autonomy, if you disagree you hate women and are anti-choice

My personal choice is to refer to myself as being 'anti abortion'.

As a middle lane hogger you can't be pro life; people like you cause the most accidents 🤷‍♀️.

I have heard others call themselves 'unborn advocates' and 'right to life supporter'.

I'm guessing they're also staunchly anti-capital punishment and pro-hunting bans. Not to mention strongly in favour of restrictive gun legislation.

In that particular scenario, I think the woman should have been able to choose to not be pregnant anymore. But not have the right to kill the fetus first. It’s the last part I can’t get my head around.

Pro choice means that a woman has the right to chose to either terminate her pregnancy or not, depending on circumstances - before 24 weeks at will, after 24 weeks on medical grounds. Yes, I would very much like for women to have a choice to terminate on medical grounds to spare a child from unnecessary suffering. My dear friend has one child with SMA and they were not prepared to have another one with the same condition so they did everything possible to complete genetic testing on foetus as early as they could. In some countries they would have been forced to deliver a child who would have very poor quality of life and die before the age of 24 months. Having a choice does not mean choosing to abort either. It simply means that a woman if free to make a decision based on what is the best for her and her child.
People who advocate for change in abortion laws are not pro-life, however because they have no consideration about how the child will live. They are pro-birth or anti-abortion. Big big difference.

The law in UK is quite liberal compared to most other countries most of Europe has a 12-14 week deadline for abortion on request of the mother, after that it is generally only available if there is a risk to mother's life ( very rare) rape or incest or the baby has a severe disability or is unlikely to survive post birth. I do not think there is anywhere where you can get an abortion on request rather than for medical agreed reasons post 20 weeks.
I do not agree with abortions on healthy babies that would survive if born ie past 24-26 weeks

My family are very opposed to abortion in any circumstance. They think the baby’s right to life takes priority over everything else. I don’t agree with them, the mother’s life and the quality of life the baby would have matters too. Abortions shouldn’t be used as a consistent method of contraception, but I definitely think those women that need them for health (including mental health) reasons should be able to access them safely (if the doctor is willing to do it).

No baby born at 24-26 weeks is going to be born healthy. They'll be born clinging on to life and need massively intensive and invasive medical treatment, often for many months to survive (and then often with long term health conditions). The reason being they're not viable.

@NuffSaidSam I probably didn't express it well, but by healthy I didn't mean they would not need care but rather there is nothing intrinsically wrong with baby it was developing as it should for that time period, so what I mean is unfortunately due to late anomaly scans etc it might not be possible before 24 week deadline for a baby developing with severe abnormalities.
I do not think that a baby developing normally should be aborted after 24 weeks I think at this point the baby has a right to attempted life

Yes well said. This is what I am!

I find the division quite odd because it sets up the framing along an axis I don't think is binary

I also find it odd when people ask "do you support women's right to abortion" - well yes and no, it's a qualified right, it's a right that diminishes along a sliding scale from conception to birth, where the justifications need to be increasingly stronger as you get closer to birth

To all those telling me I'm pro-choice, hmm, it seems to be something of a fashion these days to tell people off for not being pro-choice enough for not supporting women like that 34-wks case the other day. It just makes me go "fine, I'm not I guess"

Nonsense.

Your position is entirely clear and accurately described by the phrase ‘anti-choice’.

Forced-birther another accurate term.

Embrace it.

I don't need to have an opinion on abortion as I have never had one, so I am not for or against it overall, when people speak of abortion it is not called a baby but they do when miscarriage is mentioned so is it just 'cells' or a 'baby'?

I do think if a 3rd person kills/harms a pregnant women the baby is life so the person should be tried for murder etc. of 2 people not one

I don't think abortion should be used as contraception and there should be a date cut off to have one so if you past a certain date it is illegal

Childish.

‘Baby’ is a term of endearment and is used during a wanted pregnancy. No one really uses the scientific terms during a wanted pregnancy but cells, embryo, foetus etc are still correct.

I guess I don’t see why two doctors are required to sign off for an abortion within the standard limits. If the woman no longer wants to be pregnant, that’s her choice. The foetus isn’t viable at that stage, so why the handwringing?

I’m of the view as soon as possible, as late as necessary. I suppose I could get behind a doctor needing to agree a late abortion was necessary as a late abortion would be complex.

I also don’t think abortion would have been a crime in the first place if men were the ones who got pregnant…

I hate the term pro life, I use anti choice. Because the pro life stance doesn’t give a shit about the lives of anyone who has already been born.

This is where I have problems - so it's a baby if you want it, but its not a baby if you don't want it. When you have a scan at 12 weeks and you see a little wiggly thing, it's a baby only if you want it . And if you don't want it, then its just a cluster of cells.

Call it what you like, it's a developing human being and I have a big problem with killing it because it's existence is not welcome to you.

Factually, depending on the stage of pregnancy it is a foetus or an embryo etc with the potential of developing into a baby.

Not many people use the scientific terms though because the pregnancy is wanted and they think of it as their baby even if the term may not yet be correct hence term of endearment.

If someone has an early miscarriage, I wouldn’t tell someone it was just a bunch of cells but at the same time, if someone had an abortion at 12 weeks I wouldn’t use the term baby or accuse them of killing it because I’m not an arsehole for a start but also because the situations are very different.

I never said that one situation is a baby and one isn’t, factually neither would be consider babies despite the term of endearment most people use with wanted pregnancies.

So your implication is that it's OK to kill a person who isn't healthy / who would need medical care ?