To not find the labels "pro-life" and "pro-choice" useful

[Middlelanehogger]

My position is that over the course of a 9-month pregnancy, the "thing" inside the womb transforms gradually from a ball of cells with value 0 (on the first day of conception) to a fully-grown baby (in the minutes just before it exits the birth canal).

There are some significant milestones, for me personally somewhere around 12 weeks after the risk of miscarriage dramatically lessens, and somewhere around 24 weeks when the baby is viable, but that doesn't lessen the "gradual" development of the life inside.

I don't have an issue with the current decrim legal framework in the UK. I think it's fine. I think abortion is sad and is taking a life. I think sometimes that's justified. I think even if it's sad, I'd rather the procedure be in the light of day with medical care. I think the closer you get to the end of the pregnancy the more the life inside starts to count in ethical calculations, such that there is an almost smooth transition for the rights of a baby 1h before birth vs 1h afterwards. I think it's similar to killing puppies - it's really sad, sometimes necessary, should be regulated, shouldn't be a free-for-all...

So I don't count as pro-choice or pro-life. But I don't think my position is all that different from a lot of people's.

It really concerns me that people want to push this "pro-choice means as late as necessary for any reason and that's the only feminist position" thing. It will damage our current status quo.

Aibu?

Many religions have a fundamental belief that life starts at conception. Are you calling anyone that follows these religions 'crazy extremists'? I think this calls into question fundamental values in our society such as tolerance and religious freedoms.

Whilst I am personally a pro choice atheist, I think it's important that we show compassion and understanding to those who have genuinely held opposing beliefs. A Christian may strongly believe that an abortion kills a child of God and a soul irrespective of the stage of gestation. You can't expect someone with this belief to be pro choice or to readily accept women having abortions. To them it is equivalent to condoning the murder of babies and I don't think any of us on this thread would accept the murder of babies even if society's consensus was that it's ok.

Did you even read what I wrote? I didn't call anyone a crazy extremist, I said that saying 'oh there are crazy extremists on both sides putting me off, my views are the sensible middle ground' obfuscates that the pro life position is, of necessity, an extreme one.

There is only one pro life position, which is no abortion in any circumstances ever. That's it. That is an extreme position. Whatever the reasons someone has for holding that position, it is extreme, all absolutes are by their nature extreme.

I think abortion is where the UK’s belief women should have safe access for any reason should come first. In the same way that France’s belief wearing religious symbols in schools is wrong comes before any religion’s wish to do so.

Of course, this would require the UK having such a belief… but I live in fear we’ll follow America and in hope that we won’t.

I’m obviously not pro killing babies, but I am anti women being the only ones to suffer the consequences of sex, especially where that sex is not entirely consensual. Most anti-abortion rules (including in some US states) permit abortion due to rape, but there are many more scenarios where sex doesn’t meet the definition of rape, but it’s pretty damn murky.

I also don’t see why a woman should have to admit to any of that to get an abortion. It’s like the punishment continues. If a woman doesn’t want to continue with a pregnancy, why not accept that at face value?

Doesn't the compassion and understanding have to work both ways. If I am to be compassionate to someone who belives abortion is evil etc then that person should be compassionate to me when I say that I don't belive that. People are allowed to belive what they like they don't have to right to force that belief on to others.
I know this wasnt directed at me but just wanted to add I would say someone who is pro life is an extremist , crazy is debatable thou

I did read your post. My point is that a lot of prolifers hold this view for religious reasons and wouldn't define it as an extreme view at all. To them the concept that anyone can murder a defenceless and innocent child of God is extreme.

I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that all absolutes are considered 'extreme'. We have loads of absolutes in society that aren't considered extreme at all. For example, we don't have the death sentence in this country even in relation to the most heinous and awful crimes. By your definition this is an 'extreme' as it is an absolute but most people that are anti the death penalty wouldn't accept that it's an extreme. We also aren't allowed to murder each other or rape each other.

The issue with abortion is that prolife and prochoice advocates often see the whole issue so completely and fundamentally differently that it's hard to empathise with the other side. If you see a fetus and think 'a bunch of cells' then it's much much easier to take a 'non extreme' position than if you see the fetus and see a defenceless baby.

For most of my life I've been vehemently pro-choice and I would liberalise access to abortion further - I think it should be allowed up to the point the child starts to become properly aware of its surroundings, probably 18-months to 2 years after birth.

@Dotjones Are you saying you would be OK with people killing 2 year olds?

Doesn't the compassion and understanding have to work both ways. If I am to be compassionate to someone who believes abortion is evil etc then that person should be compassionate to me when I say that I don't believe that. People are allowed to believe what they like they don't have to right to force that belief on to others.
I know this wasn't directed at me but just wanted to add I would say someone who is pro life is an extremist , crazy is debatable thou
Of course compassion and understanding needs to work both ways. Prolifers need to understand that people that are pro choice also have genuinely held strong opinions that underpin their beliefs on the issue. Most people are ultimately trying to do the 'best thing' often in very difficult circumstances.

As a pro choice advocate of course it is easy to say that people can believe what they want but shouldn't force it on others. That is the belief that underpins the whole idea of choice. There are plenty of areas in our lives though where we as a society aren't pro choice because we think that certain things should be banned. People that are prolife think abortion fits into this category alongside other things that there is more of a general consensus on.

I would say anyone who has the opnion that their view needs to he held by others is extreme, I can hold opnions about anything I don't belive my opnion is the right and only one or that others should also do what I think or belive. Like religion. I could be religious (I'm not) but I would be extreme if I forced that religion onto others, weather they ageed or not. That's definition of extreme to me. Which is why I think pro life is extremist.

Just wanted to add aware it wasn't directed at me , but still think it's valid comment

@cameoveragain It was a pretty shocking statement that jumped out at me. I don't know what people on the extreme end of pro-choice think, but I have heard some very extreme views. You are using the usual dehumanising language in calling the foetus an invader and making references to 'hosts.' I support abortion within UK limits, but I wonder about people who refer to the foetus with distaste and detachment, claiming any time any reason is valid.

Do you think everyone should hold the view that murder is wrong? Rape? Genocide? If so, do you accept you're an extremist?

Murder is an interesting one, because most of us (I think) believe murder is wrong. But if someone is going to kill me, and I have the means to stop them by killing them, I am allowed to do that in law. Is that murder? They're just as dead.

But murder is a different question, because as a society (almost?) all of us agree that it's not okay. Whereas with abortion, there are lots of differing opinions about whether it's okay, and if it is under what circumstances and in what time frames. So with murder we have a good consensus going, with abortion we don't have that.

They might think that doesn't mean it's actually a fact thou. That's just their way to justify it.

This is a very refreshing post op. Big things like this have so many grey areas and I hate how many people insist on either one extreme or the other, even to the point of telling other people what they think. Ie you think women are just incubators or you think child murder is acceptable. It's like rational discussion and respect for other's opinions goes out of the window.

I think anyone with common sense and just human decency holds the view murder, rape and genocide is wrong. It's not about whether we should or not.

Only one side is telling what others should think.

Which side @Rainbowsandbutterflies1990

I agree. I don't know why this issue is so polarised.

'Common sense' and 'human decency' are subjective concepts that change over time. There aren't really any universal human values so if you think that these things should be banned and people that don't share your views shouldn't be allowed to do them then by your definition you hold extreme views.

I don't disagree with you to a large extent, but the amount of grey areas is why I don't think a black and white line is helpful. There are too many individual circumstances, hence the phrase "as late as necessary."

Although it's not a position I hold myself, I completely understand where people are coming from when they have reasoning for a certain time limit, and I am open to reasoned discussion around that to show my opinion for the counter view that time limits aren't helpful.

Equally I would absolutely say I have no respect for the opinion of anyone who is against abortion for any reason, in the same way I have no respect for the opinion of racists or homophobes. An opinion does not demand my respect, and I will refuse to respect this opinion for as long as I draw breath (which without abortion could have been over already).

Well @cameoveragain I think you are missing any nuance in the situation. Sometimes women have terminations that are very painful, but they simply have no better options.

@cameoveragain And I don't think comparing a foetus to a parasite is non-emotive. If anything you are using highly emotional and unscientific language to evoke disgust.