To not find the labels "pro-life" and "pro-choice" useful

[Middlelanehogger]

My position is that over the course of a 9-month pregnancy, the "thing" inside the womb transforms gradually from a ball of cells with value 0 (on the first day of conception) to a fully-grown baby (in the minutes just before it exits the birth canal).

There are some significant milestones, for me personally somewhere around 12 weeks after the risk of miscarriage dramatically lessens, and somewhere around 24 weeks when the baby is viable, but that doesn't lessen the "gradual" development of the life inside.

I don't have an issue with the current decrim legal framework in the UK. I think it's fine. I think abortion is sad and is taking a life. I think sometimes that's justified. I think even if it's sad, I'd rather the procedure be in the light of day with medical care. I think the closer you get to the end of the pregnancy the more the life inside starts to count in ethical calculations, such that there is an almost smooth transition for the rights of a baby 1h before birth vs 1h afterwards. I think it's similar to killing puppies - it's really sad, sometimes necessary, should be regulated, shouldn't be a free-for-all...

So I don't count as pro-choice or pro-life. But I don't think my position is all that different from a lot of people's.

It really concerns me that people want to push this "pro-choice means as late as necessary for any reason and that's the only feminist position" thing. It will damage our current status quo.

Aibu?

It is "pro life" that is the real misnomer. It should be something like "pro forced birth".

You don’t have to be either - it’s not a rule! Also 12 weeks isn’t a magical date where you become less likely to miscarry as and individual - miscarriage becomes exponentially less likely through the pregnancy- it’s not binary

It really concerns me that people want to push this "pro-choice means as late as necessary for any reason and that's the only feminist position" thing.
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I don't like the trend of everyone talking about abortion as either blanket "a boring medical procedure" or "genocide", or aggressively weighting either the ball of cells or the mother's total free choice way too much.
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I’m* *going to guess that I’m older than you, and I just feel it twas ever thus.

Your thread title is misleading - what term would you use if not ‘pro-choice’? You are pro women having a choice (within an agreed legal framework on timescales etc) to terminate a pregnancy if they wish to.

In an ideal world we'd think of it as a spectrum with the most extreme no abortion even in life threating circumstances on one end and abortion on demand up to term on the other. With plenty of positions in between.

Never going to happen, it's been a culture war for too long now.

That's not entirely true, a whole range of genetic mutations not compatible with life cause miscarriage/silent miscarriage before 12 weeks. 12 weeks is also coming to the end of the time where its safe to terminate at home, by 14 weeks options tend to be surgical or going through labour.

If you believe that women should have full autonomy over their own body it is that black and white

there are no grey areas

its just makes it more comfortable to put conditions around women

I agree with a lot of what you say. Its very sensible. I still think the euphemisms pro life and pro choice apply and you are pro choice. But like you I'm in the middle. Most people are.

I think that once the foetus is viable then the situation is complicated and abortion is akin to murder. Most women won't have late term abortions only in awful circumstances where the life led by the baby would have been awful with insurmountable handicaps. Even then some people wouldnt abort.

Unless you think abortion should be 100% banned, you're pro choice. You can tell yourself otherwise if you like, but what you are calling 'pro common sense' is pro choice.

Anti choicers are trying (and apparently to some extent succeeding) to move the Overton window on abortion. Pro choice just means you think abortion should be legal in some circumstances - where you draw the line is up to you but if you believe any abortion should be allowed, you're pro choice. So you're pro choice.

Framing it as 'both are equally abhorrent ' is playing into the hands of people who don't want abortion to be legal in any circumstances, including for pregnant 10 years olds, foetuses with awful abnormalities who would suffer horribly if born, women who will be killed by the birth etc etc. These people are not pro life.

I think the pro lifers loose their argument, when they want women with etopic pregnancies not to be treated and severe handicap pregnancies to be left even though it endangers the woman's life etc.
The pro choice camp also loose their argument when they insist a foetus is not a baby until it is born up to any gestation.
As I said both camps do themselves no favours with their ridiculous non common sense views.

I don’t think the labels are useful and never have. I don’t think “pro life” is useful in particular as they should be called “anti choice” or at best “pro birth” - they don’t carry about the baby once it’s born, or it’s “life”.

I am pro choice but I think it’s important to acknowledge termination will often (usually?) be traumatic for a woman as it goes against all our instincts as a mammal to end a pregnancy.

I think the time-frames around abortion are about right in the uk.

The difficulty with holding a middle ground though is that it's difficult to dress it up as a slogan.

Taking on an extreme position, that all embryos and foetuses are sacred or that all foetuses, regardless of how late the term, are expendable are very simple and easily conveyable messages that you can turn into a placard or a meme with ease.

Occupying the middle ground, pitted with caveats and compromise, doesn't effectively satisfy the terms of current politics. 'Yes but' is boring, clunky, time consuming, detail orientated. How people in the middle keep the Overton window in a central position between these satisfying polarized extremes like trying to balance a ruler on the tip of your finger.

Bill Clinton once used phrase “ abortion should be safe, legal and rare”
irrespctive of the man himself, I think this is what most pro choice people want.
but, he was saying it for USA and global needs
we need to ensure access to abortion is safe and legal globally, an d proliferation are stopping that - although in uk it is not gaining general traction
but we also need to focus on giving people, men and women, access to contraception to ensure it’s rare. Countries with strongest anti abortion laws often have poorest access to contraception or even laws against it, or at least women and men have to always pay for it privately. The burden of contraception, even in uk, falls mainly to women. Socially vasectomy is poorly supported, misinformed and avoided. Similarly too many men object to condoms. Similarly pill equivalents for men have been abandoned due to side effects that are no worse Han those women put up with for years.
abortion won’t be rare in uk until men also take more burden for preventing unwanted pregnancy

i am happy with limitations as they are, but out of point of principle it needs to be de- criminalised in uk. The law is way out of date, and is still written to trump right of women by the state.

Abortion services use counsellors precisely because not everyone finds it easy. In no way does that undermine anyone's rights to choose

It can also be a relief and sad at the same time

Both "pro-choice" and "pro-life" camps adopt that terminology because it is easier to sell a positive position (pro or for something) than a negative one (anti).

It's usually easy to tell someone's position on abortion by the terminology they use for people with a different point of view. Pro-choice people are the only ones who call pro-lifers "anti-choice" or "anti-abortion" and Pro-life people are the only ones who call their opponents "anti-life" or "pro-death" or "pro-abortion".

For most of my life I've been vehemently pro-choice and I would liberalise access to abortion further - I think it should be allowed up to the point the child starts to become properly aware of its surroundings, probably 18-months to 2 years after birth. My view has always been "if you don't like abortion, don't have one" which has always seemed sensible to me.

I think we should respect other cultures though and accept that while we should have liberal abortion laws in this country other countries like the US should be allowed to disagree. Joe Biden hasn't presided over much change in his term in office so far but the tightening of restrictions on abortion has happened on his watch and will be what most people remember him for. I think it's clear America is heading on a path to more stringent abortion laws and I wouldn't be surprised if it's outlawed entirely during my lifetime.

The extremists on both sides of the argument use the terms 'pro choice' and 'pro life' because as a stand alone, out of context, statement no sensible person would disagree with either of them.

I would class myself as pro-choice but I think that even when abortion is safe and legal many women don't have a true choice over whether to have a child. There are societal pressures and pressure from partners to have/not have a child. Plus lack of affordable child care for women who choose to have baby and little to stop the father from leaving and/or failing to support the child financially. In many countries the cost of medical care relating to pregnancy and birth is also a consideration. Not to mention the impact of being a mother on the careers of many women for reasons that could fill several threads. So I think being pro-choice actually is about far more than whether abortion is legal.

Equally I think that to be truly pro-life (not just anti-abortion) campaigners etc would need to be fighting for decent and affordable medical care for the child and mother, post-natal support, affordable childcare, good quality education, housing etc.

Until somebody comes up with a better term pro choice seems OK for those of us supporting the UK type position where abortion is easy to obtain in the early stages but much more restricted later on. The point at which a pregnancy moves from the one to the other is a matter for debate informed by scientific advice on foetal viability etc.

Pro life is no abortion for anyone in any circumstances ever. That's it, blanket ban. Any other position is pro choice.

Saying 'oh there are crazy extremists on both sides putting me off' is a false equivalence - there are some pro choice advocates who are extreme, but all pro life advocates are extreme.

What I find frustrating and just gets me angry is the pro life, it is just force life not pro life. The idea that if u don't agree with abortion, u need to force your choice onto other woman. Pro choice isn't force abortion on women than don't want it. Everyone SHOULD have a every right to decide what they personally wants. Noone should force their choice onto others.
This never seems to be spoken about. There should be a acknowledgement that if u r "pro life" , your also "forced life". And u r forcing your choice to others.

Very few pro choice people don't have some sort of cut off in their head where they think abortion shouldn't be carried out though. I don't think you have to be fine with abortion up to 40 weeks in order to be pro choice.

Really shouldn't everyone be pro choice , u can be very anti abortion and would never have one. But that's separate from thinking urself as not having one and deciding you have the right to decide for other women. If the opposite argument was saying everyone should be made to get an abortion then that's a level playing field. But it's obviously not.

As an older woman, I can’t access any of the contraceptive options I had when I was young. I’m basically limited to condoms now, which is the least foolproof option (partly because you’re delegating the responsibility to a man and partly because it doesn’t protect you from more spontaneous situations).

I’ve given up on a relationship but I can fully understand how a woman in her 40s could become accidentally pregnant and panic.

Contraception is easiest to obtain when you’re under 25.