To think that people like anti-abortionist Kristan Hawkins are the enemy of women and feminism everywhere

[Purplefoxes]

Maybe extreme but..I was just reading this BBC article (link below) on Kristan Hawkins and it made my blood boil as I am pro choice. She is the woman from the US organisation Students for Life of America and has been instrumental in over turning Roe v Wade. She is now on the back of this 'success' campaigning for total abortion ban across America . The overturning of Roe V Wade is a decision which will likely result in the death or debilitation of many pregnant women who either cannot access much needed abortions for health reasons or try to access back street illegal abortions or could even commit suicide as a result. Not to mention there could be many unwanted children dumped into the care system or brought up in abusive environments. I just cannot fathom why anyone, let alone a woman would do this. I'm sure if it was one of her kids who was pregnant and needed a medical abortion to save their life she'd change her tune! How blinkered does a person have to be to not think of the impact of banning abortion on both women and children! And how has such medieval policy been allowed to happen in modern day America..could this happen in the UK?! Are we losing our rights as women? When did the life of a fetus become more important than the life of its mother?

BBC article

@EllaRaines why do think unwanted children are a good thing? Precisely WHO are they good for? The mother who does not have the desire or capacity to raise them? The child born into an awful situation, without the love and resources they need to thrive? I just don't get who you think is the winner here? (I presume its an irrational God thing?)

She's a catholic, and with many - though certainly not all - most of the above is pretty much a given

Another example perhaps of allowing religion, no matter which it happens to be, anywhere near public policy

YANBU. There's a baseline for basic human rights, and no legitimate Government has the right to condemn women to death for being unlucky in pregnancy.

@Frabbits "Actually, no, they aren't. They are a collection of cells with the potential to become a baby".
Oh really? So you are just an adult with the potential of becoming a senior citizen. So if god forbids something would happen to you nobody would have a right to be upset about it as nothing was lost except potential? Potential is all we have as human beings. Gosh, how callous.

@Frabbits

"In a world where abortion is legal, both of us are free to believe what we like, and are able to exercise our rights to get pregnant and then exercise what we believe in. The second you take away the right to safe abortion, then only one of us is free to act in our best interests."

THIS. This perfectly sums up the debate. Thank you for this.

If laws against murder resulted in far higher levels of harm when they were designed to prevent it, then yes, said law would be called into question as a shit law.

The argument isn’t ‘just legalize it because it will happen anyway’, it’s ‘legalize it because it will happen anyway, and criminalizing it only results in significantly higher levels of injury and death. Something that is generally considered preferable to prevent’.

Not RTFT but this was my first thought. Why give her any kind of platform outside the US?

I don't think she'll do very well if she came to the UK. She'll get egged and I will be there to help 🥚

Some young women I used to work with were shown this video at catholic school here in the U.K. they were incredibly anti abortion

12 weeks! Good luck- IF you have a regular cycle and find out straight away, go to your GP straight away, you still have to wait until you are 7-8 weeks before you can have a the pregnancy confirmed by a scan, then they will start the process of booking you in for a termination, which can take weeks in itself. I don’t know many people who have managed to have abortion before 9-10 weeks. 12 seems a very random place to decide who matters.

@DeflatedAgain me too
@EllaRaines yes who looks after the children that are not wanted ? Certainly not the anti abortion rhetoric can’t you see the lack of joined up thinking here ?

As this woman is American, I've found some stats for you.

93.1% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation

A 13 week foetus cannot survive on its own outside the woman's body. Regardless of a woman's emotional attachment to it, it's not a child yet.

[[https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm

@whumpthereitis the numbers they presented to get Roe passed were completely cooked and it's been known for quite a while, that's public knowledge. It turned out that "botched back ally abortions" killed roughly the same amount of women that legal abortions did on a given period of time.
There's is no proof whatsoever that making abortion ilegal does result in worse outcomes for both mothers and babies. You'd see that the number of babies being killed drops as women aren't all that inclined to break the law. Shocking, I know.

Also, I'm not pro criminalising abortion, as it's clear from the part of my answer that you just ignored. I very much oppose the abortion on demand for any reason up until birth. Because it's batshit crazy really.

She's either mentally ill or is neurodiverse. Her arguments are inconsistent and based on ignorance in common with much of the anti abortion movement.

She's a fundamentalist. Her life's work is to force others to her own view, she is not democratically elected, she does not speak for the majority, she is dangerous.

As to adoption for all those unwanted pregnancies, I haven't seen that anyone else has noted that 5 times more black women than white are seeking abortions, how many of those poor unwanted children will be adopted by white fundamentalists I wonder.

I am horrified that in the 21st century, abortion is becoming illegal….

It’s disgusting. If you don’t like abortions, don’t have one.

As early as possible, as late as necessary

Who said anything about the numbers pre-Roe? I’m referring to the current numbers, produced by agencies that actually have an education and expertise in the field.

There is plenty of evidence, if you bother to look for it. Of course anti choices dispute it though, with whatever poor resources they can fund/get their hands on. Their position relies on doing them disbelieving it.

From The WHO:
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/abortion

• Abortion is a common health intervention. It is safe when carried out using a method recommended by WHO, appropriate to the pregnancy duration and by someone with the necessary skills.
• Six out of 10 of all unintended pregnancies end in an induced abortion.
• Around 45% of all abortions are unsafe, of which 97% take place in developing countries.
• Unsafe abortion is a leading – but preventable – cause of maternal deaths and morbidities. It can lead to physical and mental health complications and social and financial burdens for women, communities and health systems.
• Lack of access to safe, timely, affordable and respectful abortion care is a critical public health and human rights issue.

Guttmacher:
https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide

• Abortion is sought and needed even in settings where it is restricted—that is, in countries where it is prohibited altogether or is allowed only to save the women’s life or to preserve her physical or mental health.
• Unintended pregnancy rates are highest in countries that restrict abortion access and lowest in countries where abortion is broadly legal.
• As a result, abortion rates are similar in countries where abortion is restricted and those where the procedure is broadly legal (i.e., where it is available on request or on socioeconomic grounds).
• In analyses that exclude China and India, whose large populations skew the data, the abortion rate is actually higher in countries that restrict abortion access than in those that do not.
• In countries that restrict abortion, the percentage of unintended pregnancies ending in abortion has increased during the past 30 years, from 36% in 1990–1994 to 50% in 2015–2019.

@MrsLully we don’t have abortion for any reason up to birth. Why are you comparing illegal abortion with that?

Yes, really. If you can't understand that or you think your stupid analogy makes any logical sense at all...probably best not to get involved.

Utter, utter bollocks.

From the WHO:

Each year, 4.7–13.2% of maternal deaths can be attributed to unsafe abortion (3). In developed regions, it is estimated that 30 women die for every 100 000 unsafe abortions. In developing regions, that number rises to 220 deaths per 100 000 unsafe abortions (2).

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/abortion

Making it hard to access safe abortion kills women without a shadow of a doubt, all because people like you pretend to give a fuck about the rights of "unborn babies".

Yup

Cantab94 sorry - it must have been very difficult to find yourself unexpectedly pregnant at 48. I think - and apologies if I am wrong - you are saying you places your baby for adoption. I am a birth mother too so that’s something we share - it’s true there are more parents who want a newborn, and more still who want a newborn from a non drug dependent mother, and a white mother etc. I shouldn’t have presumed you had no involvement in the area but for me and for me I would never recommend it to anyone not capable of supporting themselves through the process as the cost to so many is so high. I worked in the area for years and the evidence and the experiences I had aligned showing that birth mothers were the ones left with the most trauma. Some adoptees feel that too of course. It’s a complicated issue and certainly no serious solution to abortion. Where used because women have little or no alternative it is an appalling abomination. Something that validates rather than undermines the need for abortion.

We don't have abortion on demand until birth.

I repeat my previous question and ask what part of more unwanted children is beneficial for anyone - mother or child? What part of women being forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term is best for mother and baby? Your arguments are utterly illogical so I'm guessing they're religious?

MrsLully your refusal to read the most basic data other than the twisted ranting of the antiabortion mouthpieces should be risible - it is but it’s so disturbing. You can’t care much for vulnerable women at all.

That is fine, no I didn't adopt I kept the baby and she gives me alot of joy now she is 5. I know I was very lucky to have a supportive husband and financial security however, although did suffer GD and lost a parent while pregnant so very stressful so I do have some idea what it's like. Maybe I am being idealistic about adoption, but there is a poster earlier who was adopted and very grateful that her mum didn't have an abortion.