To think that people like anti-abortionist Kristan Hawkins are the enemy of women and feminism everywhere

[Purplefoxes]

Maybe extreme but..I was just reading this BBC article (link below) on Kristan Hawkins and it made my blood boil as I am pro choice. She is the woman from the US organisation Students for Life of America and has been instrumental in over turning Roe v Wade. She is now on the back of this 'success' campaigning for total abortion ban across America . The overturning of Roe V Wade is a decision which will likely result in the death or debilitation of many pregnant women who either cannot access much needed abortions for health reasons or try to access back street illegal abortions or could even commit suicide as a result. Not to mention there could be many unwanted children dumped into the care system or brought up in abusive environments. I just cannot fathom why anyone, let alone a woman would do this. I'm sure if it was one of her kids who was pregnant and needed a medical abortion to save their life she'd change her tune! How blinkered does a person have to be to not think of the impact of banning abortion on both women and children! And how has such medieval policy been allowed to happen in modern day America..could this happen in the UK?! Are we losing our rights as women? When did the life of a fetus become more important than the life of its mother?

BBC article

I'm 100% pro life and I'm glad there is someone fighting for the unborn. People have come to think killing their babies before they are born is ok simply because society says it is. There is a lot of horrendous stuff that was considered ok throughout history that we now look back and see that it wasn't. I pray one day everyone will wake up and see abortion for what it is.

It would be your refusal to see that allowing abortions front right and center on the banner of bodily autonomy that shows a lack of care for vulnerable children, the ones still in the womb.
Again, I'm not pro criminalising abortion. You can have an opinion that lands somewhere in between the Never abortion prolifers and the Let's shout out our abortions, you know?
You might have to think beyond the tired slogans that have carried the conversation forward for so many years though, and that's tiring. You should try though!

❤️❤️❤️

It is so heartening to see others also pro life. Feels so lonely to go against the zeitgeist but will never change my mind on this.

And for everyone saying mind your business, those who are pro life see abortion as murder and whether you agree with that or not I would hope everyone on this thread is against murder and would speak out on how wrong it is. So telling us to mind our business or to just don't have abortions ourselves and let other women have them is like me saying to you just don't kill anyone but you shouldn't care if someone else does, not so simple.

@Lexie365 and @MrsLully ignoring all the questions and challenges makes your arguments even weaker. The lack of critical thinking and empathy astounds.

@cantab94 I really hope your user name doesn't mean we share an alma mater.....

Don't even know the woman but I totally agree with your heading.

It's scary road for women in America nowadays.

They're spreading their poison to Europe too, already picketing outside abortion clinics (in my city).

I'm 68 and I'm astounded, shocked and furious it's come to this after all this time.
And, we've got it in Europe too already. Poland, Orban, etc.

It's like Gilead. Utterly chilling.

And some people really and truly believe whites are the superior race. Their level of belief doesn’t change the fact they’re twats. And lol at being ‘anti murder’ when what you’re proposing causes far more injury and death than legal abortion, and calling it ‘pro life’ 🫠 at least no one accused you of being logically consistent.

And it really is that simple. Minding your own uterus isn’t a difficult task, especially when you consider how futile the pro life effort is. Unless of course you’re planning on going full Ceaușescu.

I’m not against killing depending on context. Nor is the human race at large tbh.

I think she seems a bit unhinged, why not focus on supporting babies born, infant mortality in the US is relatively high, no doubt due to the complete absence of maternity support.

Ive always been pro-choice, banning abortion doesn’t stop abortion, it stops safe abortion and women die. Having had two horrendous pregnancies I find the idea of forced pregnancy just chilling, i very much wanted to be a mother and pregnancy was the worst thing I’ve ever been through, I can’t imagine how awful it would be if you didn’t want to be pregnant.

The stories that came out from Ireland during the debate there a few years ago were heartbreaking.

Abortion rates have increased in the UK recently and it’s believed that is related to a reduction in funding for contraceptives and difficulties accessing primary healthcare services. This is what we need to be fighting to improve, trying to criminalise abortion is misguided, it harms many and helps no one.

I didn’t need society to tell me it was okay, and clearly nor do the women having abortions in countries where it is legal.

Thankfully I have the means to access abortion whether it’s legal or not, and for that I’m grateful. However, my concern is entirely for women that don’t, and wouldn’t.

Has it ever occurred to you that we are well aware of what abortion is, and yet have a different opinion to you?

@Lexie365 @MrsLully
in cases of incest that 10 year old being forced to carry a baby to term when she’s a child
in case of rape ?

No children are killed by abortion.

You are correct that good education, contraception etc., could reduce the take up of abortion, which is good for everyone, but especially the women forced into such decisions. But dressing up good points in emotive rubbish about killing children totally defeats your purpose. It is not an either/or, and will never be (hopefully). What individuals choose for themselves should not be the measure of social expectation on everyone.

they absolutely feel pain from quite early on. the reason they are dead in arrival is because they are hacked to pieces in the uterus and brought out piece by piece. they are essentially chopped alive. they are babies and I am speaking as a doctor here.

I'm not here to judge anyone who has an abortion and obviously there are circumstances where it might be required. but its important to know the hard facts. anyone saying the baby is a foetus needs to realise this is just semantics. a foetus is a baby that's still inside the womb. at 9 months, it's still a foetus. it makes no sense that he or she has 0 rights until birth. even 24 week babies can survive after birth. so we have to think very carefully about where the ethical boundaries are.

and the slogan of "my body my choice" is rather simplistic in this context. I think another saying is more appropriate "with great power comes great responsibility ".

@Recoveringcynic calm down. Im not ignoring anything, I was having dinner with my family.
I know fully well that we don't have abortion on demand here in the UK, but this thread is discussed a prolifer from the US, where abortion on demand is actually legal in many states. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if we were headed in the same direction, since they aren't babies, they are foetuses and clumps of cells and all those other names that we use to dehumanise the unborn.

In what way it benefits the baby to not be killed by an abortion?! You aren't serious, are you? The prospect of a difficult life is better than. I prospect at all. Who are you to decide that somebody would be better off dead? I'm asking this as someone who hasn't had an easy life, yet I'm very grateful for having been given the opportunity to struggle.
In what way it benefits the woman? Well she wouldn't be killing her child, that's for starters. Why is death better?
Death is so final. There's nothing after that, no possible better outcome, no hope. You can't erase a pregnancy, you are terminating a life. I just wish some of you could meet me here. How can we flippantly just do away with all that potential? Don't you find it even a tiny bit sad?

@Lexie365

So as you consider it murder are you someone who would advocate for an outright ban like Kristan Hawkins? No matter the circumstances?

For transparency I am pro choice but I am genuinely interested in your answer. (Would hate to be accused of being incurious)

I find this a really difficult subject. I do think abortions should be available before 12 weeks and after that for medical reasons but not sure why I believe that. I’m definitely not a supporter of the idea that abortion should be available at any time up until the baby is born unless it’s for medical reasons - I can’t imagine the pain of carrying a baby that you know has died or has no chance of survival outside the womb.

I think there should be an investment in education and contraception including the MAP and access to emergency coil fitting if past the time period for MAP.

You can't ban abortion. People still had abortions before they were legal. You can only ban safe abortions.

Aah Cantab94 how lovely that you got to enjoy your baby and your supportive husband and financial security. Those things are helpful and I am sorry you lost your parent - that’s always hard. GD and parental loss though don’t teach you anything about being a birth mother or about adoption and really you aren’t being idealistic so much as dismissive. As an adoptee it’s great I am here but it obviously wouldn’t have mattered either way as I wouldn’t have known anything about the alternative. There is trauma from both sides and I think you would see an understanding of that from anyone who is educated on the subject.

@thinkhorsesnotzebra yes I would like a complete ban. I think in some cases (rape etc) it is absolutely heartbreaking and I don't think anyone pro life just thinks oh well, too bad you just have to. Of course it's heartbreaking and and extremely difficult for them but I genuinely don't think abortion should be a option. Only way I can try and explain it is if you saw someone adult or child with an extremely hard life, your heart would go out to them but you wouldn't think it's ok for them to be killed (I hope)

I would still like an answer to my question.

How many women dead from illegal backstreet abortions would be an acceptable number on an annual basis for you so-called pro lifers out there if, for instance, we were to ban abortion in the UK?

Because for me as someone who believes in choice, that number is 0.

Oh my God I feel sick.

And if the rape victim is a child? And they have a high chance of serious complications during pregnancy and birth?

MrsLully I never suggested you were pro criminalising women who have abortion - odd that you think that’s what not caring for the vulnerable looks like.
Fortunately, I have enough critical thinking ability to have been able to leave the ardent pro-life beliefs I was raised with. It’s the ability to see the nuance you accuse me of lacking that makes me support abortion. Pregnancy can be so complicated and awful for so many - your evangelical glee that you are right is a weird response to this.

These articles do not mention clearly enough that any restriction of abortion leads to women who are miscarrying not receiving the medical attention they require.
This type of legislation is proven to cause maternal death and serious illness when they are miscarrying.
Medically the term abortion means to end a pregnancy by natural or assisted means.

‘I’m speaking as a doctor here’ 🤡

Yet your knowledge of abortion techniques is apparently limited, as well as your knowledge of the neurological components required to feel pain.

It’s all sideshow though, because the baby/fetus can be called whatever you like, it can be as capable of incapable as you like, none of that changes the fact that abortions have always happened, and will always happen.