To think that people like anti-abortionist Kristan Hawkins are the enemy of women and feminism everywhere

[Purplefoxes]

Maybe extreme but..I was just reading this BBC article (link below) on Kristan Hawkins and it made my blood boil as I am pro choice. She is the woman from the US organisation Students for Life of America and has been instrumental in over turning Roe v Wade. She is now on the back of this 'success' campaigning for total abortion ban across America . The overturning of Roe V Wade is a decision which will likely result in the death or debilitation of many pregnant women who either cannot access much needed abortions for health reasons or try to access back street illegal abortions or could even commit suicide as a result. Not to mention there could be many unwanted children dumped into the care system or brought up in abusive environments. I just cannot fathom why anyone, let alone a woman would do this. I'm sure if it was one of her kids who was pregnant and needed a medical abortion to save their life she'd change her tune! How blinkered does a person have to be to not think of the impact of banning abortion on both women and children! And how has such medieval policy been allowed to happen in modern day America..could this happen in the UK?! Are we losing our rights as women? When did the life of a fetus become more important than the life of its mother?

BBC article

Every pro choice person I've ever come across is in favour of good sex education and access to good, free contraception.

But - sometimes education and contraception fail. Sometimes there's no consent. Sometimes circumstances change after conception. Sometimes the foetus has abnormalities. Sometimes the woman's health is at risk. Sometimes the foetus is just straight up unwanted.

For those cases, we all need access to abortion.

Absolutely no one wants an unwanted pregnancy in the first place. No one thinks abortion is desirable - just that sometimes it's the least bad option.

I personally know one woman who died in childbirth, and two who were permanently disabled by childbirth - one of whom died prematurely 30 years later as a result, and the other of whom is unlikely to ever be able to return to work, or even drive.

In case you're thinking these cases are from a long time ago, they're not. They're from 1 year (permanent disability), 9 years (death) and 30 years ago (permanent disability and premature death).

Let's not pretend that pregnancy and childbirth is some sort of risk free paradise.

@FKATondelayo she already has a big social media and USA political platform! So I cannot blame the BBC for reporting the story. It's good to have a warning on the sort of dangerous ideology becoming more prevalent across the pond because it serves as a warning to us here. That if we don't fight this sort of rubbish and be clear on our views we could easily sleep walk into a similar situation. I'd rather hear about it early than too late.

I don't think anyone should be judged on their own choices, but I absolutely do think that it's fair game to criticise and question the motivations of people who are trying to restrict other people's choices, to the point where they spread misinformation and lies.

Just because someone believes that their personal crusade is just, doesn't mean that they should be able to do what they like. I'm sure the people hanging about abortion clinics haranging staff and pregnant woman believe that changing just one mind makes it all worth it, but I disagree and think they are terrible, terrible people.

Are you suggesting that this woman trying to legislate other womens rights away is not a bad motive? Her ideologies go far beyond having a different view.

Personally I don’t give a fuck whether she thinks she’s got good motives or not, the reality is the anti choice laws cause far more injury, death and devastation than they claim to prevent.

The fact is that baby or not, alive or not, whatever pointless window dressing you want to focus on, women have always had abortions and always will have abortions whether they’re legal or not. Nearly half of all abortions worldwide happen in countries where they are illegal, making it on of the leading causes of maternal injury and death. That’s the reality.

@FourTeaFallOut yes the changing political landscape is a major issue. Things like this would never have passed if it weren't. There is a more extreme movement over to the right..not just in America but also in Europe here included which is what makes me think actually...yes we could see similar legislation here. In fact...perhaps the ground is already being set. See this article, yes it is the Guardian but it makes concerning reading. Would be interested to know if there has been any amended stance since then!

Abortion rights removed from government statement without consultation

What do you mean by "support" for women with unplanned pregnancies? What happened with your last pregnancy - did you put the child up for adoption? I doubt that you did, and that's the main problem with your "Oh just have it adopted" solution to unplanned pregnancy. Women would be pressured by their families /communities /society to keep these unplanned children, pushing more and more women into poverty and dependency. My heart sinks at how many mothers are scratting around looking for part time, school hours, minimum wage jobs. I see it on my local fb pages all the time. Often single parents. Having children puts many many women in a precarious and vulnerable financial position. They lose out on career progression, pensions, status and opportunities. Men however, mostly carry on regardless.

What's your opinion on ectopic pregnancy, foetal abnormality, high risk pregnancy where the pregnant woman may die, rape victims etc.?

This is a very emotive subject especially for people who have had abortions who feel judged. That doesn't mean that people cannot have a pro life opinion and they also deserve to be heard without being demonised. I appreciate that people may think the object is to control women but from my point of view I think the limit is too high in this country out of concern for the baby and others may have other motives.

You're obviously entitled to your opinion but the point is it isn't your or anyone elses right to try and take away the choices of other women.

A question was asked in the House of Lords
https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2022-07-21/hl1992
Not impressed with the response!

But it might be part of the motivation for someone who not only outlaw abortion under any circumstances (including rape, she thinks the body prevents pregnancy in cases of sexual assault), but also the pill and any other kind of hormonal contraception.

And do you think Kristan's 6 week limit is too high? Bearing in mind that this is a huge compromise from her - she believes that all limits are too high.

What motives?

A very quick Google search on the statistics will tell you that the vast, VAST majority of abortions in this country (and, indeed, most of Western Europe) are carried out between 6-12 weeks. Many women - especially younger ones - won't even be aware that they're pregnant before that point. Good for you if you have a lovely, regular cycle, but a lot of women don't.

Thereafter, very few 'social' abortions are carried out, particularly towards the end of the current legal period and if they are, there will be complex reasons. Abortions between 20-24 wks are vanishingly rare and most often carried out as for medical reasons, some often highly traumatic.

I don't want to live in a country or in a society in which women are forced to act as incubators, often at a high cost to their mental or physical health or even their lives.

Living women and girls are worth more and that's just a fact.

@Lwrenagain I'm less of a pacifist but that did make me smile. I'm terribly sorry for your loss though. The heartbreak from the blow biology has dealt you is enough to deal with, without the added judgement from zealots. And if you had been in one of the unfortunate states in America you could have been forced to continue with the pregnancy literally until your reproductive organs ruptured and not only the fetus dies but you could have gone into septic shock and died as well or if survive it pontentially be infertile. An intolerable cruelty when as far as I am aware it is known there is no way to save a fetus (actually it's a ball of cells, blastocyst at this point) which implants outside the womb. As health care isn't free in America will this mean insurance for women goes up because it will be more risky to get pregnant?

I don’t care if anti choicers judge me tbh, they’re very welcome to.

Respecting someone’s right to an opinion is not the same thing as respecting the opinion itself. I don’t respect anti choicers any more than I respect racists or other breeds of misogynist. People have the right to their opinion, they don’t have the right to not be called out as trash for said opinion.

That doesn't apply to the vast amount of abortions. As I said I had an unwanted pregnancy at 48 so of course I considered all of that given the higher risks. I realised I could not have an abortion. Other people have a different view and that is fine but people should stop demonising those with different views or ascribing bad motives to them - it is becoming alot more common

In 2022, in the UK alone, 90,000 children were waiting to be adopted. So in your ideal world, women and girls should be forced to continue pregnancies they don't want so that this figure can increase. Get in the bin.

Don't want an abortion, don't have one. Keep your beak out of other women's wombs.

This is a very emotive subject especially for people who have had abortions who feel judged

And this is more anti-choice BS. All the statistics show that the vast majority of women feel little more than relief after an abortion.

I've had 2. I don't feel guilty, judged, regretful, nothing at all.

Really? Because there are plenty of children already up for adoption already. Do you not see how a huge influx of children up for adoption would overload the system and weaken safeguarding? All those babies would be prime targets for child slavery and SA at the hands of those coming forward to adopt them, as well as the trauma of never knowing their birth parents, I don't understand how anyone could do that to children

Yes will obviously I'm not talking about you then am I? Calling out people that don't agree with you trash is a very mature view I must say, no wonder the standard of debate is so low in this country (including parliament).

I don’t know why people are saying that no one has the right to take women’s choices away. All laws and social taboos limit our choices. For example, I can’t choose to sell my kidney or crash my car unless I want to get in trouble with the law. I am personally pro choice in all circumstances, but it’s clear to me that if you literally believe the fetus is a baby, you also believe that in campaigning against abortion you are trying to prevent genocide. It’s perfectly reasonable for someone to campaign to limit women’s choices in this respect.

You made a general statement that it was an emotive subject for women who have had abortions. I fall within that category, hence why I disputed the assertion.

Should I pretend to be respectful of an abhorrent position that, factually, results in significantly more injury and devastation than its pro choice counterpart? Why? In what way is it a sign of maturity to dance around and pretend that the emperor’s new clothes are in fact legitimate? Pray tell. Identifying trash as trash is at least intellectually honest.

The fetus is a baby. It doesn't magically become one just as it goes through the birth canal.

Okay, and so what?

Pro-life fuckwits do not give a crap about the fetuses. It's all about controlling and punishing women for daring to want to have bodily autonomy. They don't care about life, if they did they would actually give a fuck that restricting access to safe abortions kills thousands of women completely unnecessarily each year.

I can get on board and accept most viewpoints that differ from my own, but if you are pro-life you can just get absolutely off the planet. Pro-life seeks to take away what should be an absolute right to safe, legal abortions determined solely on the need and thoughts of the actual pregnant woman.

Yup. Time to recirculate the "irresponsible ejaculators" thread. Women suffer for mens irresponsible behaviour.