UK children shorter than EU children

[Popcorn121]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/21/children-raised-under-uk-austerity-shorter-than-european-peers-study

I listened to James O’Brien on LBC today talking about the above, the conversation was all about UK poor diet and parents being blamed for not feeding their children well (due to austerity). But AIBU to think that height is mostly determined by genetics? Yet this isn’t mentioned, maybe people in the UK are more likely to be shorter due to genetics? I’m shorter and ex is on the shorter side, even though I feed my kids fruit and veg and healthy protein like salmon and chicken they are still going to be short. I know a lot of families like this.

Not sure if you noticed but the study is about population averages, not just your daughter?

^ also your daughter being a (comparitively short UK) 7yo the size of a (comparatively short UK) 10yo doesn't mean anything in the context of the study which is comparing one country with others.

So this is a study on 5 year old heights. They don’t do it any older. The today programme talked about this yesterday and explained that at 5yo it’s generally before genetics have kicked in properly. They also used white males only I believe. It’s specifically the height in this age group that is more down to nutrition and is not then supposed to be compared to height at an older age. I feel this point has been missed in some of these articles.

I don't get how they can say genetics haven't kicked in properly at 5yo.

DH and I are both short, our kids are both short. Panicing about DS being at the bottom of the chart the coment was made Shetland ponies make Shetland ponies.

I am not jumping down anyone's throat thanks.

Your 5ft1 is specific to you and irrelevant. I am not sure you understand how statistics work. And of course nutrition impacts height. It doesn't need to be malnutrition either.

Excellent, we can stop blaiming the short Asians!

The today programme talked about this yesterday and explained that at 5yo it’s generally before genetics have kicked in properly

How did they explain that genetics don't kick in until after 5 years old ?

@RedToothBrush A point regarding dairy is that many Asians are lactose intolerant.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201016-why-china-developed-a-fresh-taste-for-milk

I am not fortunately but have friends that are, one still eats pizza as he loves it but it makes him really unwell.

The stats you posted about poverty also link in very well with educational attainment. With Chinese and Indian students achieving best overall results and this has been pretty consistent for a long time. Some of those kids are most certainly not living the high life. I’m the classic Asian stereotype, parents run a Chinese restaurant, expecting me to work and also study very hard and no dating.

I find it quite weird how offended some people are if immigrants are mentioned at all even if it’s not an especially negative comment.

The two teens in our family who are dairy intolerant are the tallest out of the whole extended family. No other animal apart from humans drinks milk from other animals, it's definitely not necessary for good nutrition (I have it every day for breakfast so not against it, but not necessary).

I can't help but feel vitamin D plays more of a part. We live in North of Scotland, although we have had a good summer so far this is extremely unusual- and each year we take my daughter for 4 weeks (spread over spring and summer) to south of France where we have relatives. I always always notice an extreme growth spurt both in height and in her nails and hair. We eat similar things in both countries, in fact her diet is probably worse in France as on holiday, but it's the sun doing the work.
We also go to the south of England during summer as well to visit other relatives, and even though not as extreme, if it's good weather, I notice a growth spurt too.
There's so many good parts to living here but the lack of sun is just not one

Wasn't vitamin D or the lack of it associated with rickets? Even though my daughter is outside all the time, and eats salmon, mushrooms etc essentially a diet rich in vitamin D, she was found to be significantly low in it which resulted in aches and fatigue. However, won't other northern European countries, who are still seeing an increase in height, be in a similar situation?

Regarding milk - in the graph above it looks like the US are seeing similar trends but yet they drink a lot of milk.

Our family are very short but I believe it is associated with our Welsh genes which must be dominant over our Scandinavian and Germanic ones.

I don't believe being a short nation is terrible at all tbh, but if there is a cause which brings with it health risks then it is an issue.

I was coming on to post this.

I know a family with four children who moved to Australia. The older two children were born here, and were average height. They are teens now and are pretty tall. The youngest two were born in Australia and have always been very tall eg wearing age 9 when they were 6 etc. I think the sunlight has everything to do with it!

I doubt that would change the figures, mass migration was in the 1960s and 1970s.

Nutrition does make a huge difference. North and South Koreans have the same genetics but those from the North are about 3 inches shorter.

The Dr who studies this in Seoul measures N Korean defectors. So it might be that he is measuring people in better health as you can't really defect if you are not well.

Vit D. But how about gigantic Dutch people? Germany, Scandis? Its the dairy and protein. Please dont blame the stats on the immigrants they are controlled for in the model.

Swansridinghorses
They also used white males only I believe

How did they manage that if the study involved children from 200 different countries? Why would they exclude African American and Hispanic children from the US data? Doesn't make sense to me.

pointythings
The article isn't about height in the UK in general, it's about the change that has happened since 2010

The height comparison is between 'now' and 1985 - we are not told what height ranking children in Britain had in 2010. The 2010 comparison is more political than scientific?

RedToothBrush
I've just looked at the ONS live births by ethnicity
This is 2019 White British: 59.8% ...
This is 2007 White British: 63.8% ...
The change has been gradual over the intervening 12 years but is fairly significant. There's been a 4% shift away from white british.
Is it enough to fully explain a change in height? No.
Is it enough to expect that there changing genetics diverging from other EU nations even in five years might explain at least PART of this difference? Yes.

You need to look further back than that and compare 2019 with 1985.

I think the comment about socioeconomics is relevant with regards to immigration too. Why? Because we know recent immigrants are more likely to be lower status economically.

Yes - that must be a factor.

LuciferRising
Wasn't vitamin D or the lack of it associated with rickets?

Several articles in the Guardian here - Dec 2007/Jan 2010
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2007/dec/28/socialexclusion.health

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/22/sharp-rise-vitamin-a-deficiency

AmaraTamara

Have you read the study yourself?

You implied another poster was racist because she posted some factually correct statistics about immigration to the UK Vs other European countries. Which is ridiculous. I see someone's said that was controlled for in the study so fair enough we can rule that out.
For the record I don't think it's 100% genetics I agree nutrition plays a part but I think genetics plays a much bigger part here in the UK where most people get enough nutrition unless they're on a crazy fad diet like raw vegans (unfortunately people do that to their kids but it's thankfully not common enough to affect the stats) I'm saying all this because I see people beating themselves up in the comments here thinking they are to blame for their child's height, I don't like to see that, nutrition has to be severely inadequate long term for it to affect the child's height it is Mostly down to genetics.

We live in the NE of Scotland. Dd who is just 5 is 117 cm. Out of the sample of 10 children away to start primary with her in August, parental height definitely seems to be a factor. At 5'8 I tower over all the other mums and a fair number of Dads. The kids at the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum are mostly the smallest but that's not true for all. The boys are all considerably smaller than the girls. Dd is also taller than her own brother was at 5. He's now the tallest boy in his composite class despite being in the younger year. They were both very long babies (90th odd percentile). They drink loads of milk, eat lots of yogurt and spend loads of time outdoors but so do their peers.

Babies vary but not that much in length and weight.

We size children's clothes by age, it's not unusual for a tall 8 year old to be in clothes sized for a 10 year old but you don't get that with a baby.

A new born might be in 0 - 3 months or might be in 3 - 6 months clothes but they are not going to be in a 2 year old's clothes.

The genetic component comes in gradually, yes Shetlands make Shetlands but if you don't feed a Shetland foal it will not grow as big as it should.

There are variations within a population but you can take the average, that is what is measured.

I'm 5 ft 0, I wasn't short at primary school but by the time I left everyone had grown past me.

Babies vary but not that much in length and weight.

I disagree.

in my family (mixed white northern european) full term baby weight was between 2kg and 5kg at birth.

length at birth is not measured in uk (at least wasn't when mine were born.

the babies of asian friends were mostly around the 2 kg mark at birth and noticably slimmer.

We size children's clothes by age, it's not unusual for a tall 8 year old to be in clothes sized for a 10 year old but you don't get that with a baby.

Of course you do. Some new borns fit new born clothes. Others have already outgrown 0-3 months size. My tall friend and her tall husband had the dubious honour of having the longest baby ever delivered at the local hospital. He is now a 6ft 6 man!

As I said, it was tongue in cheek and aimed at the thread generally and perhaps society too, not just the poster.

I didn't realise you were the poster's personal protector.

Britain is a wealthy country. If our children are short it's not because of poverty or lack of food.

Huh?? Babies vary hugely!!! In height and weight! Surely you count it by proportion, so a variation of say 60% is massive

@PyjamasToMyLeft

Why do you think that the UK is more mixed than other European countries?

When my son started school he was wearing age 3 school trousers and was the shortest boy in his class despite being the oldest. He is officially 'white British' but with a South American grandmother whose short genes are clearly dominant (all her grandchildren are short). It's ridiculous to say genetics haven't kicked in at 5.