UK children shorter than EU children

[Popcorn121]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/21/children-raised-under-uk-austerity-shorter-than-european-peers-study

I listened to James O’Brien on LBC today talking about the above, the conversation was all about UK poor diet and parents being blamed for not feeding their children well (due to austerity). But AIBU to think that height is mostly determined by genetics? Yet this isn’t mentioned, maybe people in the UK are more likely to be shorter due to genetics? I’m shorter and ex is on the shorter side, even though I feed my kids fruit and veg and healthy protein like salmon and chicken they are still going to be short. I know a lot of families like this.

I didn't really know that this was a thing.

We live in an overall poorer area, although we aren't poor. My eldest child is tall, over 6 foot now. My youngest child is smaller than most of his classmates. If anything the younger one has a healthier diet as he's not a fussy eater. He's very sporty and active but still tiny.

I've noticed that a lot of the overweight children are much taller.

I always thought that height was down to genetics.

I think it's mostly down to genetics, there's been a lot of immigration to the UK from countries where people are usually shorter such as india, Bangladesh etc. I ate pretty healthily as a child and I'm still only 5"1 while I know giants who lived off crisps and chocolate.
Thats not to say diet dosent play a role at all but you'd have to be pretty severely malnourished as a child for it to affect your height which is rare in the UK unless you put your kid on an extreme diet like raw vegans

Probably not many in Lithuania, Bulgaria and Montenegro, the countries used as a comparison.

Not to the same extent as the UK.

The migration of Indians and Pakistanis to the UK is associated with historical ties and Partition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_diaspora
The UK has about ten times more Pakistanis living here then the next European Country (this doesn't include people of pakistani descent who are British though).
United Kingdom: 1,174,983 (2011) compared to next nearest Italy: 118,181 (2017 official estimate)
Probably not many in Lithuania, Bulgaria and Montenegro, the countries used as a comparison.
Indeed Bulgaria: 60 - the wiki article doesn't give details of Lithuania or Montenegro.

The same is true for India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_diaspora
The UK has nearly ten times more Indians living here than the next European Country (this doesn't include people of indian descent who are British though).
United Kingdom: 1,051,762 compared to next nearest Germany: 126,000
And again for comparison: Bulgaria: 127 Lithuania: 103

The second article puts the percentage of the population this makes too. Indians make up 1.8% of people living in the UK whereas the Indian diaspora is 0.2% of the Dutch population.

And like I say this doesn't take into consideration the historical nature of these two migration route and how many people of Indian and Pakistani descent are naturalised British citizen or born in the UK to British citizens.

Indeed looking into this, the ethnic descent figures for the Netherlands have (0.37%) Indian ethnic descent (0.15%) Pakistan descent (2022 figures)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Netherlands

The same for the UK - the last data here is from 2011 and thats dated. :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom
Indian ethnic descent 2.3% and Pakistani descent 1.9%
Bangledeshi comes in at 0.7% too.

Indeed the 2021 census data list Asian, Asian British or Asian Welsh as making up 9.3% of the population in England and Wales compared to 7.5% in 2011
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/ethnicity/bulletins/ethnicgroupenglandandwales/census2021#ethnic-groups-in-england-and-wales
Thats a HUGE percentage increase in just ten years.

We also need to keep in mind that migration tends to be in younger age groups which are more likely to still be of child bearing age too. We know that this is playing out and that the fertility rate of women of asian descent is higher than the white british rate.

So whilst I DO think that some of the drop of in height will be down to poor diet I also look at these numbers and think that a significant migration / natural population increase in these ethnic groups is relevant. The genetic mix people living in the UK is changing significantly and in a different way to our European neighbours. And has done so at some speed.

This is perhaps a controversial thing to point out, but this is what the data is saying and its relevant to this conversation.

My daughter who can't have dairy is so much shorter and thinner than the one who can. Nothing we can do about it - she carries epi pens for her allergies, no wiggle room. I worry.

Correct

This is actually what the nhs recommends after age 2 - which is batshit

You can read the actual academic report - you don't have to rely on the news coverage you don't trust if the research itself interests you

I've just looked at the ONS live births by ethnicity.

This is 2019
White British: 59.8%
Black Carribean: 0.8%
Black African: 3.3%
Pakistani: 4.1%
Indian: 3.2%
Bangledeshi: 1.5%

This is 2007
White British: 63.8%
Black Carribean: 1.1%
Black African: 3.3%
Pakistani: 3.8%
Indian: 2.6%
Bangledeshi: 1.3%

The change has been gradual over the intervening 12 years but is fairly significant. There's been a 4% shift away from white british.

Is it enough to fully explain a change in height? No.
Is it enough to expect that there changing genetics diverging from other EU nations even in five years might explain at least PART of this difference? Yes.

My first kid got European supported school milk. Second kid didn't. Maybe dropping school milk since 2010 has had an effect?

First kid is allergic and not reached full potential height. (Shorter than me, first generation in four where that has happened) second kid is related to a Humphrey (1970s!) and drinks lots of milk and is also shorter than peers.

This is a lot to do with dairy or, I suspect, what's in our dairy as a result of hormones and medications given to cattle

Also it's designed to fatten calves, not people.

Please do not listen to this personally you can not feed a child tall (unless the reason they are small is malnutritioned as stated)

Some kids are just that, a bit smaller, its not a bad thing, bigger isnt always better or healthier either.

It's absolutely fine to put your mind at rest and pop along to the docs, but please take this with a pinch of salt (or milk or fat or whatever) and keep being a great parent.

No idea but seeing the similar trend in the US could UFP have anything to do with it?

Just to balance that out there are anecdotes saying that their fussy kids are the taller ones, so theres no stead fast rules.

I know 2 vegan children and they are taller than most of their peers.

*UPF

There will be a dietary component to the height and build of children. Bear in mind that school dinners were introduced in the U.K. because of the boer war. The army traditionally recruited the poorer elements of society and weedy little city kids from the slums did not grow big enough to fight the healthy boers who grew up on farms.

https://cdn.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/education/school-dinners.pdf

Height is determined by both genetic and environmental factors. Whatever your genes, you won't grow to your maximum potential height if you are not exposed to suitable nutrition and exercise. This sort of study only provides information at a population level. Clearly there are shorter and taller individuals who have good nutrition.

another thing to blame the immigrants for - stealing our jobs, sponging our benefits, reducing our height stats. Whatever next!

Whatever your genes, you won't grow to your maximum potential height if you are not exposed to suitable nutrition and exercise

Exactly, if you are malnutritioned, you wont reach your maximum height and despite your diet, you wont exceed your genetic expected height.

Are you seriously denying that south east Asian people are on average a lot shorter than northern European people? You can literally look up the statistics if you don't believe that maybe do that before you imply she's blaming anyone for anything

It was meant to be tongue in cheek. A little bit anyway.

Not that particular poster, but "no no, it couldn't be all the crisps and nuggests and lack of veg, it must be immigrants" seems to be the takeaway on this thread.

Well seeing as a child would have to be very malnourished long term for it to affect their height its not unreasonable to assume genetics and immigration from countries where people are usually a lot shorter than here is the reason for this. Jumping down peoples throats to imply they're racist for saying that Is a bit daft.
My parents fed me very well and I still grew to be 5"1 meanwhile I know plenty of people who barely saw any real food other than chocolate crisps and takeaways as children and they grew to be giants. This isn't Me saying it's fine to feed your kids loads of junk food I'm just saying it's a very extreme case of malnutrition where it affects the child's case and there would be other notable health concerns if that was the case

*height not case

The Netherlands has immigration levels similar to uk, it’s just from different places. Historically Indonesia and more recently Turkey.

Holy crap OP, I just read the article - 10cm shorter kids, rickets and scurvy (was it scurvy?)! That's mad.

I'm gonna give my kids multivitamins from tomorrow.