To think that secondary school uniform rules are ridiculous?

[TrulyFlumptious]

Just for transparency, my DC are nursery and primary school age, so I currently have no skin in this game.

When I was in school (I’m in my late 30s, for reference) primary and secondary uniforms were very similar. Shirt and tie, branded cardi/jumper, plain black shoes and black or grey skirt/trousers. This was the standard from reception up to year 11.

Over the years, primary uniforms have gotten a bit more casual. Branded polo tops in place of shirts and ties seem to be the standard now. I have 3 primary schools near me and I can’t remember the last time I saw a small child in a shirt and tie.

However secondaries, even the local community schools, now seem to be channelling private school style uniforms as standard. My old school now insists on blazers, school issue tights, and uniform skirts in a school-particular check pattern. This seems to be standard process across most senior schools now. You also barely go a week without seeing a story about a child getting into trouble for not wearing the uniform tights, being put in a weeks isolation for forgetting their jumper, or children being forced to keep their blazers on in heatwaves whilst their teachers are in short sleeves or summer dresses.

AIBU to think this is completely ridiculous and getting out of hand? The argument of “this is preparing them for work” is totally arbitrary now - the world has changed, especially since covid, and barely anyone wears a shirt, tie or blazer to work any more. Most office workers are in smart casual and can adapt their dress for their own comfort levels, and even in the jobs that do require uniform it usually consists of branded polos/tees, or a tunic. What exactly are these students being “prepared” for? Yes, there should be some uniform rules in place to ensure students are not inappropriately dressed, but as far as I can see, these ridiculously over-complicated uniforms are out of touch, out of date, and do not fit in with modern society. I feel they are used simply as a means of control.

And don’t even get me started on the cost.

What do you think?

YANBU – senior school uniforms are ridiculously over-complicated, out of touch, and need to go back to basics
YABU – school uniforms are as strict and complicated as they should be.

Its about teaching kids they sometimes have to follow rules they don't agree with. Its about teaching kids that sometimes, no, they don't get their own way

I agree that schools prepare us for petty officialdom.

But forcing kids to wear blazers in a heatwave goes beyond teaching them to follow rules.

Also, what's the argument for imposing great expense on parents?

@ArabeIIaScott Wrong thread?

What's the issue with it? We were always allowed to take off jumpers but had to ask permission for blazers. But it was only a formality. In each lesson one person would ask and then everyone who wanted to did.

If it was really hot there was a blackboard outside the head's office saying "Warm weather dress" which meant blazers were temporarily not required.

I don't remember anyone ever having any concern or complaint about it. It was just something you asked to do, same as asking to go to the toilet or standing when another teacher entered the room.

All at bog standard 90s comp.

Oh, how the hell did I manage that?! Thanks, I'll ask MN to remove.

Well if they think a rule is stupid and has no value, they should be feeding back to their senior management.

Who should listen to the feedback of their educated, professional staff.

Meanwhile, back in the real world... a) not all teachers necessarily have the same opinions about whuch rules are necessary or unnecessary, so whose feedback should be followed? and b) Heads might make a show of 'consulting' staff, but in the end they can do what they want.

The new Head at my school is introducing blazers. He asked for feedback from staff (through a questionnaire sent individually to staff) and he talked to groups of students. He says that people are mostly in favour 'but you can't please absolutely everyone'. Anecdotally everyone I've spoken to (staff and students) is against the idea. I don't suppose we will ever see the actual results of the questionnaire. We all knew he'd already decided.

I hate it when parents ignore it and complain they can't afford school shoes when the kids are wearing £80+ trainers

Families like that (and like mine) most likely shop in Primark and George for almost everything, and occasionally treat our kids to a slightly more upmarket garment or footwear. Money is finite and we don't appreciate being fleeced on top of everything to appease some smug middle class aesthetic whims.
Those who bleat about equality and faux concern for "the poor", should insist uniforms were free (or at least the cheapest available option).

I hate it when parents ignore it and complain they can't afford school shoes when the kids are wearing £80+ trainers

I was in a situation once where I had to send one of my DDs to school in the ridiculously expensive (imo) trainers her Dad had bought her after she put a hole in her school shoes and I simply couldn’t afford to replace them until payday.

From working in schools over the years I know a fair few Mums who were in the same position at various points.

Well some schools clearly do think it’s silly as they’ve actually listened to parents complaining, just saw this https://twitter.com/TheWeekUK/status/1686362901316050944?s=20

I’ve no skin in this game but I do think it’s an interesting debate, I’ve never worked anywhere that enforced a uniform and apart from emergency services or some shops I feel like official clothing in the workplace is becoming a thing of the past. So I’m not sure how useful school uniforms really are (unless they actually help parents take pressure off what to dress their kids in for school)

We moved to Ireland when my eldest was just about to start secondary and I had the list of required uniform, the rugby kit, general sports kit, woodwork apron, lab coat, blazer, specific jumper and trousers, shirts and tie.
I couldn’t believe the difference over here, crested jumper or patch on another plain jumper and the option of a school hoody or coat if they wanted( they did, the hoody was ridiculously cosy and they got years out of them). No P.E. Kit, just whatever sports kit you wanted, communal lab coats/woodwork/art protection.
Thry all look warm and comfortable and there’s no problem with just shirtsleeves in the summer. All the extra expense just seems so unnecessary.

Since moving to a country where schools don't have uniforms I've stopped thinking uniforms are necessary or a good thing. Children can wear whatever they want to school here (schools aren't allowed to restrict clothing or hairstyles except for health and safety or hygiene reasons, because children have a legal right to self-expression) and its not a problem. They almost universally wear comfortable sensible clothes, decent weather-appropriate footwear, and according to my 12 year old there's no problem with bullying about clothing. And they don't have to wait until the summer holidays to have a fun, different hair style, or get their hair dyed.

Rules at our secondary

Black trousers or skirt
Black jumper or cardigan
White shirt
Black shoes (of any kind as long as black)
Blazers in 6th year
School tie

Its great, its affordable. Its still a uniform but none of the nonsense seen on this thread.

No, I can't explain it. It's ridiculous and something the UK should be reconsidering. As a country, we've had a bee in our bonnet about school uniform forever when it is really a side issue and needs to go.

If my boss tried to tell me I had to wear a blazer to work every day because it “looks smart”, I’d be telling them to get stuffed

then your issue really is struggling with authority, isn’t it? Because loads of jobs require uniforms…..armed forces, police, nursing and other allied professionals, supermarkets, fast food outlets, nurseries, receptionists in doctors surgeries, hotels as well as assorted corporate offices, cleaning companies, delivery drivers, beauticians and hairdressers, waiters, chefs, even builders and other tradesmen wear uniforms these days. The shirt and tie may not be the norm now in white-collared work (and I am not sure I agree this is really the case) but uniforms are a requirement in many roles in many sectors.

DT’s went to a non uniform school from ages 4-18. No time wasted on schools policing uniform, no bullying and practical clothes for wearing in school and travelling to and from. Jeans and hoodie or shorts and T-shirt were the norm. Saved me money as they just wore the same clothes as they did at weekends and holidays.

I did say "should" listen.

I didn't say they will!

The parents should simply say they won't buy blazers and refuse to cooperate. But the problem is that you always have the virtue-signallers and the ones who are scared of authority, who will comply which means everyone ends up having to.

It's not about authority. You know that if you eg work as a guard on a train, you'll have to wear a uniform.

But if you work in an office you would very tightly be a bit perplexed at the notion you had to wear a blazer.

And there is similarly no need for pupils at a school to wear one. I am not anti-uniform but I am anti-ridiculous uniform rules and requiring pointless bits of clothing.

rightly not tightly!

People should not have to ask to remove items of clothing if they are hot (or indeed to put them on if they are cold).

My 1980s grammar school managed without any of this crap. We neither had blazers nor ties and if we needed to take our cardigans or jumpers off, we did. Although they did eventually introduce a school skirt which was ludicrously expensive, fortunately just as I went into sixth form.

You know that if you eg work as a guard on a train, you'll have to wear a uniform

and you know what a school's uniform policy is before you send your child to the school? it's on their website. What's the difference?

That’s not always the case though. New Heads are able to change the uniform. And more and more often when schools change to academies that involves a change to uniform.

DS’s uniform has changed twice in five years. Luckily the HT has said children already in the school can wear uniform until they’ve outgrown it, but there are still people with children already there whose younger children will no longer benefit from hand-me-downs.

The difference is that 1) if you choose a job that entails a uniform, you get paid and 2) with uniformed jobs, the uniform has a legitimate purpose, whereas school uniform does not (because if it did, why are other countries able to produce well turned out, ready to work/learn young people?).

School uniform in the UK is basically a religion.

I think part of the issue is that smart uniform is correlated in many parents' minds with good behaviour and high standards. Consequently you will not get a school drop the smart uniform as they want students who behave and achieve well and parents who support school rules. They perceive that dropping the uniform rules makes them a less strict school. They also fear attracting those who are difficult and who won't follow the rules.

No you don't because you could start a school and the existing head decides to change the uniform once you start.

Or, as often happens, there's a change of head and they decide that they want to put their mark on the school and so change the uniform. There is meant to be consultation, but as a pp mentioned, it's often lip service only. When my son started at secondary the head stepped down at the end of the first term. However, the new head didn't change the uniform (only the PE uniform and that was a couple of years later).

Also, it's a fallacy that people have a choice about what school they send their kids to - they often have to take what they are offered (and no, home education is not an alternative "choice" in that scenario). So you just have to accept what the uniform rules are.