To think that secondary school uniform rules are ridiculous?

[TrulyFlumptious]

Just for transparency, my DC are nursery and primary school age, so I currently have no skin in this game.

When I was in school (I’m in my late 30s, for reference) primary and secondary uniforms were very similar. Shirt and tie, branded cardi/jumper, plain black shoes and black or grey skirt/trousers. This was the standard from reception up to year 11.

Over the years, primary uniforms have gotten a bit more casual. Branded polo tops in place of shirts and ties seem to be the standard now. I have 3 primary schools near me and I can’t remember the last time I saw a small child in a shirt and tie.

However secondaries, even the local community schools, now seem to be channelling private school style uniforms as standard. My old school now insists on blazers, school issue tights, and uniform skirts in a school-particular check pattern. This seems to be standard process across most senior schools now. You also barely go a week without seeing a story about a child getting into trouble for not wearing the uniform tights, being put in a weeks isolation for forgetting their jumper, or children being forced to keep their blazers on in heatwaves whilst their teachers are in short sleeves or summer dresses.

AIBU to think this is completely ridiculous and getting out of hand? The argument of “this is preparing them for work” is totally arbitrary now - the world has changed, especially since covid, and barely anyone wears a shirt, tie or blazer to work any more. Most office workers are in smart casual and can adapt their dress for their own comfort levels, and even in the jobs that do require uniform it usually consists of branded polos/tees, or a tunic. What exactly are these students being “prepared” for? Yes, there should be some uniform rules in place to ensure students are not inappropriately dressed, but as far as I can see, these ridiculously over-complicated uniforms are out of touch, out of date, and do not fit in with modern society. I feel they are used simply as a means of control.

And don’t even get me started on the cost.

What do you think?

YANBU – senior school uniforms are ridiculously over-complicated, out of touch, and need to go back to basics
YABU – school uniforms are as strict and complicated as they should be.

Dealing with different people in charge changing the rules in their department depending on their whims would actually be much more in line with workplaces, which preparing children for so is often said to be the point of uniform, than a blanket rule always enforced…

Dealing with different people in charge changing the rules in their department depending on their whims would actually be much more in line with workplaces, which preparing children for so is often said to be the point of uniform, than a blanket rule always enforced…

That's a very weak argument for teachers not doing their job properly. And of course the point of uniform isn't to prepare children for the workplace. It never has been. It's just a fake justification for uniform. Most kids go on to colleges and universities where they wear whatever they like anyway.

You’ve completely missed my point

Have I? You seemed to be saying it's a good thing if teachers are inconsistent, because it's more like the workplace. I disagree.

Where did I suggest it was good exactly?

Yes...teenagers are not stupid and don't rebel just for the sake of it. The way to avoid pointless rebellion is to avoid pointless rules! Concentrate on things that actually matter (sitting quietly in class, bringing the right books, doing the work etc)

I live in Australia and only the private schools are ridiculously prescriptive about uniform to the extent that everyone must wear their blazer/hat/skirt. My kids go to state schools and they have a blazer in their uniform but it’s not compulsory. If you prefer to wear a shirt and school jumper, go for it. If it’s hot, feel free to just wear your shirt. There are short and long sleeve shirts - choose which one you prefer to suit the weather. At DD’s school the tie and hat are optional. You can decide whether to wear a skirt with tights or socks or pants. DS can and does choose to wear shorts all year round while some kids there always wear long trousers. He’s just getting a blazer for the first time in yr 10 because it’s been a cold winter (for us).

Somehow despite all this flexibility, kids are still perfectly capable of adapting to the workplace. It’s almost as though it doesn’t matter if you spend 13 years looking exactly the same as everyone else in your school.

Less jobs requiring a shirt and tie these days is irrelevant. Its not about getting kids to wear shirt and ties. Its about teaching kids they sometimes have to follow rules they don't agree with. Its about teaching kids that sometimes, no, they don't get their own way. Otherwise you get kids having left school never having heard the word "no". You want to be a fireman? Great. You want a beard? Tough mate, you can't have one or your breathing apparatus doesn't fit. You're going to get your Mum to write a letter saying you should be the exception to the rule? Tough shit mate, we don't make exceptions to the rule.

And yet kids in countries that don’t wear uniforms manage to adapt just fine…

And that reasoning has never once featured in any uniform policy of any school I’ve ever worked in. Smartness, work ethic and safety yes. Learn the word no - no.

Yep, it's daft. All the children dressed like little undertakers. Not many people wear ties to work anymore.

A simple uniform applied with common sense is okay - getting enraged by shoes that have white bits on them is ridiculous.

So the lesson this is teaching is 'tough shit, mate'.

Rather than 'dress sensibly'.

I think the latter would be more useful, tbh.

HNRTFT but I actually think a school uniform is a good discipline for teenagers! They do still have to go to work looking presentable regardless of the job .
I have three children who went to decent schools with a strict uniform policy and they now have absolutely no problem with looking smart and ready to do their job !

Dealing with different people in charge changing the rules in their department depending on their whims would actually be much more in line with workplaces, which preparing children for so is often said to be the point of uniform, than a blanket rule always enforced…

well fuck it. Teachers are adults in a position of authority. So "i;m just doing my job" doesn't cut it.
Probably the sort of people who boarded up basketball hoops during lockdown,

Kids in Spain and Germany also seem to manage just fine despite no uniforms at school

To be honest most of the girls round here look indecent due to the extreme short skirt length that doesn't cover their bum cheeks. Prostitution is the only "profession" where that would be tolerated. The smartness of the blazer doesn't offset this at all. Jeans and a hoody on the other hand would be suitable for plenty of workplaces.

Anyway it's perfectly possible to have clean and tidy appearance with no uniform, schools can even have a dress code. (Like most workplaces do in fact).

I wonder about the motivation of head teachers who enforce blazers and ties for girls but allow their bottoms to be on show.

But there are loads of rules in school apart from uniform. Plus most children will hear "no" from their parents from toddler age onwards. Your argument is nonsensical

Where did I suggest it was good exactly?

It sounded as though you were saying it was good for students to get used to people in charge making their own rules/interpreting rules how they wanted, because that's what they will get in workplaces. If you were in fact making a sarcastic point about this fitting in with what schools claim is the purpose of uniform, then apologies and I entirely agree that schools' claims about the purposes and benefits of uniform are nonsense and disingenuous. It was hard to tell from your post.

It obviously varies by school and some do seem to complicate things.

The school I work at is fairly straightforward in terms of uniform (secondary).

School blazer (machine washable)
Plain white shirt/blouse - can be bought anywhere.
Tie
Grey trousers or skirt (girls can wear trousers if desired)
Boys - plain black or grey socks
Girls - white ankle socks or black tights.
Plain black shoes.

PE - joggers, zip top and t-shirt. These are branded but they wear them all day on the days they have PE.

We do have a no leggings rule and no trainers with the normal uniform. It just keeps things looking smart.

As teachers, we wear business dress, including blazer jackets. PE staff wear the adult size of the PE kit.

I think it's good to have some standard to it, so that kids don't just end up turning up in all.sorts.

Other countries manage fine without school uniform and so should we.
School is not the Army.

Most schools near me, you have to ask permission to remove blazers/jumpers

Strict uniform rules at my DGC school

What's the point of a clip-on tie? Who in the workplace wears one. Kids have to have them so they don't get choked

If they wear a shirt with a pocket it gets ripped by someone. My DGC had their whole shirt ripped last term.

Kit is chucked around cloakrooms.

Kids can still tell the status difference by shoes and bags.

It doesn't stop bullying

Of course they are capable of using common sense, but what they are paid to do is follow school policies. It's not very helpful or fair for individual teachers to only uphold rules that they personally are in favour of

Well if they think a rule is stupid and has no value, they should be feeding back to their senior management.

Who should listen to the feedback of their educated, professional staff.

Most schools near me, you have to ask permission to remove blazers/jumpers

Local parents are completely spineless, then.