To think that secondary school uniform rules are ridiculous?

[TrulyFlumptious]

Just for transparency, my DC are nursery and primary school age, so I currently have no skin in this game.

When I was in school (I’m in my late 30s, for reference) primary and secondary uniforms were very similar. Shirt and tie, branded cardi/jumper, plain black shoes and black or grey skirt/trousers. This was the standard from reception up to year 11.

Over the years, primary uniforms have gotten a bit more casual. Branded polo tops in place of shirts and ties seem to be the standard now. I have 3 primary schools near me and I can’t remember the last time I saw a small child in a shirt and tie.

However secondaries, even the local community schools, now seem to be channelling private school style uniforms as standard. My old school now insists on blazers, school issue tights, and uniform skirts in a school-particular check pattern. This seems to be standard process across most senior schools now. You also barely go a week without seeing a story about a child getting into trouble for not wearing the uniform tights, being put in a weeks isolation for forgetting their jumper, or children being forced to keep their blazers on in heatwaves whilst their teachers are in short sleeves or summer dresses.

AIBU to think this is completely ridiculous and getting out of hand? The argument of “this is preparing them for work” is totally arbitrary now - the world has changed, especially since covid, and barely anyone wears a shirt, tie or blazer to work any more. Most office workers are in smart casual and can adapt their dress for their own comfort levels, and even in the jobs that do require uniform it usually consists of branded polos/tees, or a tunic. What exactly are these students being “prepared” for? Yes, there should be some uniform rules in place to ensure students are not inappropriately dressed, but as far as I can see, these ridiculously over-complicated uniforms are out of touch, out of date, and do not fit in with modern society. I feel they are used simply as a means of control.

And don’t even get me started on the cost.

What do you think?

YANBU – senior school uniforms are ridiculously over-complicated, out of touch, and need to go back to basics
YABU – school uniforms are as strict and complicated as they should be.

YANBU

Looking round my office now, we're a customer facing role so have members of the public in.

The men are wearing either open necked shirts with no tie or a polo shirt in smart colours and tailored linen trousers. Women are wearing short sleeved blouses, or plain coloured short sleeved tshirts with knee length skirts, or midi type dresses with short sleeves.

Our only dress rules are shoulders have to be covered and no open toed shoes, otherwise as long as we look smart it's fine.

Why does a 12 year old need to spend 30 hours in a buttoned up shirt with a tie and a blazer on, and those ridiculous chunky leather corporate shoes? What is the point?

...bearing in mind I think there would be very few jobs that actually required you to dress like this every day anyway. ..and insisted you couldn't take the blazer off until the temperature reached a certain point. I work in central London. The train passengers and people on their way to work wear all sorts. Women wearing trainers, boots, sandals or (gasp) sleeveless dresses. Men wearing chinos, shorts, jeans, trainers etc. Some might even have a grade 2 haircut. I did see some men on the train in morning suits and top hats yesterday but I'm pretty sure they were going to ascot rather than work.

Why does a 12 year old need to spend 30 hours in a buttoned up shirt with a tie and a blazer on, and those ridiculous chunky leather corporate shoes? What is the point?

Blows my mind that it is parents and even kids themselvs insist on it.
But then, given how people behaved in last couple of years, should we be surprised.

I think I've worked with a few men who may have prepared in that way!😉

You should have maybe asked for a lift instead!

I've had two different experiences of secondary uniform as I moved across country partway through school. My first school was horrendously strict, they specified the model number of clothing items allowed - I believe for girls there was a choice of two different skirts and one pair of the most HIDEOUS trousers you've ever seen, meaning only the muslim girls who wanted to cover up wore them. There were blazer, ties, proper shirts only from the uniform shop, they were very strict on shoes, and absolutely no make up, piercings beyond one stud or unnatural hair colours.
At my second school it was more more relaxed. We had shirts, blazers, ties, and any black skirt or long trousers. Our shirts could be bought from wherever, they had branded blazers, but also you could just get a sew on patch from the office for very cheap to put on your own blazer, ties were very cheap as well. The ties were actual ties not clip ons so they didn't strangle us and we could tie them quite ridiculously loose.. I look back on those days and wonder why we wore them halfway down our chests 😂 but as long as you were otherwise well behaved they didn't care what we wore really as long as it looked like the uniform. People would wear black jeans or leggings instead of trousers. There were no make up rules and hair could be whatever colour. In my final year I became a prefect so we were then given out a different colour tie to differentiate us.

I think lax uniforms are good but no to the extremes that a lot of people were saying exist. I don't think non uniform is a good idea personally. People are saying there's no issues at their school but you only have to look at the horror stories from America with kids (mostly girls) getting "dress-coded" here there and everywhere because their male teacher was too distracted by their shoulders being exposed, or their skirt is a quarter inch too short to be "decent". Also on non-uniform days I definitely remember girls turning up in micro skirts that you could see their underwear in, wearing crop tops, boys in opposing footie skirts fighting, kids wearing cheaper stuff being teased etc. It was brushed aside because it was just one day of a term but if it was non-uniform permanently there would absolutely be schools that made strict rules and then we'd be no better off except your kid would need longer in the morning to pick out what to wear.

One thing I think is absolutely important is the ability for kids to express themselves within policy. Teens need to be able to experiment with their hair style and colour, their make up, their nails, their piercings. They are learning who they are as people and experimenting with their appearance is a huge part of this. I could do all the above, and while in school I discovered a life-long love of doing my own nail art. My brother's school does not allow any of it and it just means they'll go wild and look ridiculous in college, or worse, once they get to the workplace and looking crazy (shouldn't, but) can affect your work life.

you only have to look at the horror stories from America with kids (mostly girls) getting "dress-coded"

Well, you always will get morons without common sense who don't appreciate freedom. But I don't think the rest of the population should be punished or have their freedoms taken away.

I think the real issue is that kids and parents often feel that rules don’t apply to them and therefore we gat the annual September deluge of sad faced/ outraged parents and children in the press. The uniform code is set out in application packs/ same with school rules if you don’t like the rules enrol elsewhere or follow process and write to the Governors whilst ensuring your child follows the rules you agreed to upon admission. For those who say they don’t have a choice of schools, there is always a choice even if it involves moving or homeschooling

Oh for goodness sake - people should not have to homeschool or move house to avoid stupid uniform rules!

What planet do some MNers live on?

I am surprised that so many posters are so shocked about teachers enforcing uniform rules. If the policy says top buttons have to be done up or no hoodies to be worn, of course teachers have to enforce the rules

So you don't think that professionals with graduate training should be able to use common sense?

The point is, one has to call into question the purpose of the uniform rules, and the necessity of enforcing them.
Fair enough, it is a cohesive look but if someone is ridiculously uncomfortable and those same rules don't apply to staff clothing, then the purpose of the rule is questionable.
Yes, wearing a blazer will make all the kids look the same. However, wearing a blazer indoors when its 28 degrees outside, the classroom has no air conditioning and the staff are in short sleeves - then there is no purpose to the rule.

Same with office wear. If it's hot, then take off jackets, ties. You're there to do a job not be in a fashion parade.

So you don't think that professionals with graduate training should be able to use common sense?

Of course they are capable of using common sense, but what they are paid to do is follow school policies. It's not very helpful or fair for individual teachers to only uphold rules that they personally are in favour of. I'm not even in favour of uniform at all. That doesn't mean that I get to opt out of following school policies. When it's very hot (or occasionally when particular classrooms are very cold), my school relaxes uniform rules.

The posters making a point about fetishes are right, but it's bigger than that. Uniform is a national fetish. Until the UK gets over it, our kids will fry in polyester, we will pay through the nose and school uniform suppliers will rake in the cash.

Meanwhile in many other countries whose children have better educational outcomes, they look at the UK and wonder what the hell we're thinking.

My DC were lucky in that our local 6th form (which is very good) has no uniform at all - it's just clean, not ripped, no sweary slogans (political ones are allowed) and no bare shoulders - for anyone. It isn't a fashion parade at all. There's the usual tribes - the goths, the populars, the sporty ones etc. but honestly, it isn't a big deal. Everyone just gets on with learning.

@Missedmytoe

The purpose of the rule is to instil discipline and make sure all DC look the same. It’s hardly a uniform if you have some DC with blazers on and some off.

Of course if a particular classroom is exceptionally warm (I.e. above 30C), DC should be able to remove blazers for that particular lesson but it should not be an issue on 99.9% of occasions.

That was sort of the point. If it's hot and uncomfortable in the classroom then blazers are not necessary. Particularly if staff are not wearing them.
Looking the same can't trump being comfortable and at risk of overheating/fainting.

And again, if staff are not required to abide by these rules on school premises then they are unfair. I have already instructed DC that if they are in a hot classroom, and teacher is not wearing a jacket, then I don't feel they need to wear their blazer. I'll deal with any fallout as and when.
Enforcing rules like this for the sake of rules is ridiculous.

@SummerDuck can you explain to me (I am but a humble foreigner) why UK kids are so much more in need of extreme conformity than their peers in Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark etc.?

@Missedmytoe

Teachers at DS’s school are expected to wear jackets at all times. If the head announces a heatwave, teachers can remove their jackets in lessons and can also give permission for DC to remove blazers in lessons if a particular classroom is exceptionally warm.

@SummerDuck then that is all fair. At my DC's school, they are expected to wear blazers until they're told they can take them off. Teachers are in short sleeves with no ties at the same time kids are in blazers.

@Missedmytoe

Its fair enough imo that they’re expected to wear them until told they can take them off but teachers should have jackets on too.

But unless there was a health and safety reason or practical reason, work places generally wouldn't tell you when you can/can't wear a blazer. Even places with uniforms often have some variations. Why is there an arbitrary temperature anyway....who chooses when it's "no blazer weather?"
Often in the winter DD will be cold and have long sleeves and a hoodie on, DS however rarely feels cold and is usually happily mooching about in tshirt and shorts, and bare feet. Obviously we don't have a home uniform and you can't have bare feet at work, but it's conceivable that in a work setting you might get some people who feel the cold, and some who don't, and they would hopefully be allowed to dress (within a dress code ) in the way they felt most comfortable.

can you explain to me (I am but a humble foreigner) why UK kids are so much more in need of extreme conformity than their peers in Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark etc.?

one reasonable explanation - tradition. and should only be applicable to private schools. in state schools it is pure extortion and borderline abuse, that should be challenged legally.

Why didn't i personally do it yet?

Picked a nearest school that seemed most reasonable. And kept ignoring teachers complaining if my kid changed it out just outside the school gates. Otherwise i don't know.

@Fizbosshoes

I think there has to be some threshold for blazer removal otherwise some DC would try to take them off in December!

The way the DC’s school do it is fair because there is a consistent rule and the default position is blazers on.

Or you could be totally consistent and not have uniform. Works well in so many places!

Haven’t head teachers got better things to do than announcing a heatwave? Like running a school? I hope they nominate a deputy heatwave announcer if they have more important commitments that day.

I may be in the minority here but I don't have an issue with it really; surely many people who work have clothes which are reserved only for work, and clothes which are worn for home/leisure, even if that doesn't involve a uniform?

And a child (or teacher!) Taking off a blazer in December would be a catastrophe because....?

Even if you're insistent on uniform, presumably they'll have a shirt and tie, or logoed jumper underneath...so still recognisable as a pupil at the school...?