To wonder if there comes a point where you just have to give up work?

[Bluewatersummer]

I’m hopefully not there yet. But while I wish I could be very feminist about this the fact is DH earns a lot more than me and he always will, his talents lie where money is.

With one child we have managed through a combination of part time, taking turns to take time off when needed, and some good luck as well - haven’t had a lot of sickness to contend with. However, I’m due my second any day now and I’m wondering about a whole host of stuff.

It’s going to be so difficult when DC1 starts school and when DC2 is in nursery, reliance on wraparound care and rushing from A to B to C. I don’t honestly know if it is just easier for everyone - not just me - if one parent gives up work and just has their ‘job’ the children and house. Which isn’t very feminist but would potentially make a big difference to stress levels! Honestly wondering what others think: I’m not making any big decisions just yet.

Keep working. You don’t know what the future holds.

Don’t contribute to the gender pay gap.

Don’t show your kids that dads work and mums sit at home.

It will be worth it in the long run. I have always worked full time. My kids are young adults now. We are incredibly close.

Thankfully my kids know that they should never depend on a partner financially. Unless illness etc make work impossible. Independence is so important. And work is usually good for mental health.

It’s not easy when kids are young. But giving up and depending on the man is not the answer.

What’s interesting to me OP is that you are twisting yourself into knots trying to think about how to make your family life easier including some solutions that by your own admission you’re unhappy about (giving up work to be a full time SAHM). But your dh is unwilling to consider any adaptations to his life or job to balance things better for you as a family. Why?

the blunt answer to your OP is - there is no point at which you HAVE to give up work, but you need a partner who is as committed to making sure between the 2 of you you can balance things. If you don’t have that, it’s very difficult. And if you don’t have that, you have a man who is prioritising himself over you. Which is not good.

just one thing on illness - my kids paediatrician told me that children need to be exposed to 500 illnesses by the time they’re 5 to have a fully formed immune system. So, yes, they will be sick in the first couple of years of nursery. But it really, really, does pass. Kids sickness is not a good basis on which to make long term decisions about working or not working.

It is hard to know. I am intelligent enough to recognise nothing happens in isolation, and that society values men’s work over women’s work, hence the relative low pay of caring jobs and the downright shocking pay of some (eg actual caring.)

But I can’t actually address this in isolation and I’m not sure making my own life as stressful as possible is the answer!

Do I trust DH? Yes. 100%? No. I have sad direct experience of the best becoming - not quite the worst but certainly behaving in ways I wouldn’t have dreamed of, and it (subconsciously) maybe held me back from relationships for a fair bit. What I’m trying to say isn’t ‘it will never happen to me.’ I’m trying to say that if it does happen to me I have confidence that I can cope. I do have some financial resources of my own - I would obviously prefer my children to inherit directly or to benefit indirectly - but that is aside from this.

I think that funny stage at the end of pregnancy can be contemplative, thinking about this new little person who is soon going to be exhausting me I am sure! And of course like any parent I want the best for him or her and we all do differ in what we perceive as best, for some it’s being around as much as possible, for some it’s being a brilliant role model in the working world, for some it’s maybe not as clear cut. I used to dream of being a SAHM and the reality isn’t as marvellous! This morning my toddler was delightful then had a tantrum and threw a penguin at me because I closed a door I am sure many can relate!

I think what really matters for all children is of course basic needs met and an abundance of love bur then we have preferences outside of that, not a criticism of anyone else but we do.

Apparently not in the OP's case though. By her own admission she doesn't want to be a SAHM.

I grant you there are women who want to be at home FT with their children for a while. The problem comes when they decide they don't want to do this long after their children have gone to school/university/left home and the women in question have spent 20 years looking after other people without a thought for what they want to do.

It's all fun and games... until it's not.

How do you know what the wives want?

It seems statistically unlikely that they are all having a fantastic time. Some of them, sure.

What’s interesting to me OP is that you are twisting yourself into knots trying to think about how to make your family life easier including some solutions that by your own admission you’re unhappy about (giving up work to be a full time SAHM). But your dh is unwilling to consider any adaptations to his life or job to balance things better for you as a family. Why?

Also this.

Your DH sounds reasonably involved and helpful as far as he can be, OP. But it's still quite striking that it all has to fall to you, all the "rushing around" etc.

I know he earns a lot more than you. But why should that make it an open and shut case for you to stop working? Why should you be the default pick-up and drop-off person purely because he is a much higher earner? I earn three times what my DP does but I still do the lion's share of this.

I get the impression from your posts that you're uncomfortable with asking him because a) he earns a lot more than you and b) you don't want to rock the boat because he's otherwise a fairly supportive DH and you don't want to create drama.

I can understand this but the thing is you have to start as you mean to go on here. If you want to hang on to the right to have a career (on whatever terms that may be) you have to get him used to the idea that he can't rely on you to be the default carer simply because he has the Big Job.

It may be that you don't win all these battles at the start and obviously if he's got a really important meeting or whatever its not going to be reasonable. But I think you need to put a stake in the ground and say "I do want you to carve out some time to help with this because I'm thinking of my long-term prospects and I don't want to be doing this forever."

Do you live in an area with a lot of other SAHMs around OP? Is there a lot going on for kids in your area? I think, if you did decide to be a SAHM with a toddler and a baby, you need to get out and socialise with them every day. Take them to music groups, or TumbleTots or 'messy makers' every week. Do an activity every day. Have friends over; go to their houses; take them in the woods, to the beach, do painting, baking, make things up or whatever. Go out for lunch. Get a cleaner. Order shipping online. Just embrace it and get creative basically and don't sweat the small stuff. If it's raining or freezing or they're not well it's ok to chill at home. Make a den and put CBeebies on. Just accept you're on their timescale and go with it. Then you stop worrying and feeling you need to be doing 'more.' It can be a very social time. I made as many friends as the kids. Best years of my life was when they were little.

But the OP doesn't want to do this. She wants to work.

It’s not about what DH is or isn’t willing to consider, it’s more about practicalities.

So DHs work is a bit niche. We have chatted about this, if his company was to go under -
it’s highly unlikely but it’s not totally impossible just because nothing is - then he’d be looking at an immediate pay cut of around £20,000, as well as loss of bonuses and hybrid work.

And would it mean he’d be around more - no, because he’d lose that sort of ‘goodwill gesture’ that I think we all know we mostly build up when you work somewhere for a while and they know you aren’t a pisstaker.

I guess the other alternative would be to retrain but that would mean so much time and expense and starting at the bottom. I honestly don’t see what there is to gain in insisting DH changes the direction of his life, whereas the direction of my life is different.

What is more likely than me going full SAHM is that I’ll go FT and throw money but it is ironic that either way I’ll have no money 😄

@Bluewatersummer

OK, but it sounds as if he currently does have a lot of goodwill and capital where he works... so, unless I'm missing something and his company is about to go under, wouldn't now be the best time to instil a culture where he will share more of the burden?

I would understand if he was two weeks into a brand new job but it doesn't sound like that's the issue....

I wasn't suggesting he quit his job. But if he is currently cut a fair bit of slack and allowed to work on a hybrid basis etc why can't he help out a bit more?

I do understand the dilemma but does feel as if you're trying to come up with reasons why you shouldn't ask him. When in fact it sounds as if now is a pretty good time to ask him.

But it’s still the nature of the job. I’m not sure how else I can explain this. You can’t be a vet and say but I’m not working with animals. You can’t do what he does and say but I’m not travelling around the country. It just is!

I've seen a few times on this thread (which is very interesting by the way!) that it's only a "couple of years" of juggling but that's not what I've seen. I see my friends with full time jobs struggle for years with school hours. Certainly the whole way through primary school, and even when your child is 12 or 13 you still need to organise holiday camps that won't cover the whole holidays - requiring a patchwork of other care options, and before or after school care that still might not quite cover your working hours if you're both out 7am-7pm, which many working parents are. It's not like these problems just magically disappear in Year 3...? We're expecting to be dealing with school hour issues up to the teen years, when our kids will be independent enough to get themselves to and from school or organise their own holiday plans, so another ten years at least for us.

The real change needs to come from companies being more flexible with their hours and realising we don't live in the 1950s anymore with a housewife at home. It's happening slowly but still a real issue.

Well @Bluewatersummer I hope you'll have access to half the family money seeing as your husband earns so well but maybe that's a whole other thread! But seriously, I wish you the best. I'd suggest enjoying your maternity leave and then a few montha in start a thread asking families where two people work how they make it all work. You'll get loads of insight into all the ways it can be done. And maybe another thread asking SAHMs for advice on how they set up their financial arrangements so that they are protected and properly resourced if they give up work full time. And have a strong conversation with your husband about what he can commit to in your family life and what he can ask for in work (not what he wants to ask for but what he can ask for). Then you'll be able to make a really good decision for you and your family.

I think we do share and are equal - not just where money is concerned either. Next year is only a concern from the POV of a new round of nursery sickness, it is the years navigating school pickups, drop offs, managing strike days, INSET days, various days, that make me a tad. That’s not to say it’s insurmountable, before anyone jumps on me. It is more that - if I am honest the family as a whole would probably benefit more from me at home while as an individual I probably benefit more from work. Finding that balance is part of the challenge for everyone I think.

I agree that it's not like there is nothing to do after year 3 but I do think it gets easier. Key factors for me:

When both your children are in school and you don't have to go to separate places to pick up/drop off

The number of sick days dies down - my older son had endless respiratory infections as a toddler but he is now in year 1 and has literally only had one day off sick in the last two years. I am not saying that that is true for everyone but for most people, the sick days will really taper off

When one of them is off sick, it becomes more possible to WFH around them (obviously this depends on your child and your job)

We do have to sort some holiday clubs - but it's not that hard around us (again I appreciate areas vary) and the school has good wraparound.

It has involved some compromise - we both sometimes have to leave work earlier than would be ideal and we pick up again in the evening, we also chose where we live partly because of the number of childcare options.

I think one of the problems is my work is set in stone, and I have no flexibility within it other than to be part time or not.

For now it’s just nice to enjoy the fact that if DS gets ill there’s no drama and worry, just well then, he stays home. But like a lot of things the appeal can quickly wear off!

@PollyPeep

The real change needs to come from companies being more flexible with their hours and realising we don't live in the 1950s anymore with a housewife at home. It's happening slowly but still a real issue.

Well I totally agree with that. Part of the reason why breadwinners in families are under this huge pressure all the time is the fact that the whole world of work is based on presenteeism: having to be seen to have your bum on a seat in an office for no better reason than that's the way it's always been done.

And, guess what, a lot of the reason it's taken workplaces so long to adapt to flexible working is because a lot of men are scandalised at the idea of changing their routine to make life work better for working mums, so they'd prefer to engineer families to have a working dad and a supporting mum than change the status quo.

Also, whisper it, schools as well. I understand that its not the job of teachers to provide childcare and that they are stretched to the bone already. But the entire infrastructure of education seems to have been built on the assumption that every family has a stay at home parent who can drop everything with two days' notice to attend a coffee morning etc.

Basically the default setting of most institutions, despite the public name-checking of inclusion and feminism and despite the fact most families need two incomes, still works to disadvantage families where both partners have to work.

With multiple children (and perhaps multiple schools), life is just as busy when they are a bit older. When one gets sick, the others inevitably get it one after the other. Tjey May have different half-terms or school holidays. They want you to watch their football match or ballet lesson or come to their assembly. There's constantly something they need for school. They want you to go in to listen to the reading, or help in a school trip. There's all the ferrying about to their various activities; friends coming over and back and forth, friend dramas and the homework starts to matter. There might be exam prep for selective schools at 7 plus or 11 plus. It's a lot to be across when you have several children of different ages and with different needs.

I actually really agree with you. My husband and I went to the same university and both did STEM degrees/started on the same path but I went part-time when we had children and chose a more flexible/childcare-friendly industry and now there’s a huge earnings gap between us.

I really don’t enjoy being part-time (though maybe because I’m only on 2 days a week) and feel I bring in basically no salary, feel my job is the one that always compromises if the children are sick etc. and yet causes a disproportionate amount of stress. I’ve held on this long but am due my third soon and just think I'm going to take time out. I feel really disillusioned right now but trying to actively make choices that work for us as a family which is helping me to feel more reconciled to things.

Good luck with whatever you choose and wherever you end up x

When both your children are in school and you don't have to go to separate places to pick up/drop off
If you’ve planned it particularly badly like me you’ll choose an infants school and an age gap so one child will move to the junior school just as the nursery-aged one moves to the infants, and you won’t get them both in the same place until the oldest doesn’t need pick-up anyway.

I don't know if you have qualifications op but you say you don't earn much. In your shoes I would either reduce my hours or leave totally but use the time between leaving work and your youngest starting school to retrain so you are in the best possible place to get back into a decent job once the kids are in school. I studied part time for my degree and while it was hard juggling 4 kids and a house and a degree, is one of the most satisfying things I've ever done in my life.

Question, would you have to repay your maternity leave should you decide not to return?

I'd buy in the help personally and aim to have a decent career. The higher up the tree you get the more flexibility you tend to have in my experience. So I'd retrain too if I were in your shoes.

I'd have been destroyed by my divorce if I'd been a SAHM.

Is there any scope to do the same/similar role somewhere more flexible?

I didn't go back to work until my youngest went to secondary school, and then only exam work to begin with. I'm full time (tto) in education now in an admin job. DH earns a lot more than me, but my wage is now building up retirement savings.. Do what works for your family.

I mean who wouldn't like a house partner. I'd have loved it. It gives you such freedom.

Particularly if it meant you could stay at work for as long as you like? Plus all the work praise and the buzz of promotions and a bigger salary.

And no guilt because the kids have a parent at home doing it all.

And the power trip of being the big powerful money person in the relationship. Just knowing that even if you never say it.

And no one ever relying on you at home.