To think people in the UK are very lax generally about children being left alone?

[Toxicityofourcity]

Not from the UK. Some of the threads on here baffle me when it comes to leaving children alone. Children as young as 10 and 11 getting themselves home from the school, bus etc and letting themselves into an empty house. Being left for a few hours on their own. Have just read a thread about a 16yr old being left for 4 days... because she has to mind some cats?!? WTF? I just don't understand. This is not something that's done in my country at all. Is it a cultural thing? Do people not worry about house fires, accidents, abductions etc.? I just really don't understand it. But here on MN it seems totally acceptable?

It wasn’t a “general musing” though was it @Toxicityofourcity, come on. Extremely judgemental sweeping generalisation is a charitable description of what you’ve written.

And you’ve clearly never been to the Netherlands where very young kids indeed get themselves to and from school every day.

In some countries children have to navigate public transport alone to junior school. In the UK, teenagers are still ferried around well into their teens.
I didn't leave mine alone until they started high school but I had taught them what to do in an emergency and I was confident that they would cope. A 16 year old should be able to fend for themselves for a few days

Has a lot to do with their environment. I was alone for about two hours every day from age of ten, BUT we had neighbours all around who were stay home mothers and older women that my mum was friendly with, they would always have been first port of call in an emergency. There is less likelihood of that now, but on the other hand, most kids have phones. But generally I feel the home is a very safe place and accidents if they do happen can happen anywhere, with adults present too.

Indeed they are now independent adults who travel the world and navigate South London successfully 😀

I’m from Cork and have a just turned 11 year old. We’re still walking with him to school, because it’s in the city centre with some dangerous roads, but he walks ahead and makes his own judgements on crossings in prep for going solo next year. And several of his friends (fifth class) walk to and from school and let themselves in to empty houses for an hour or two. DS has no issue with being home alone for a couple of hours, and some of his friends do longer. This is pretty normal, judging by his friends, classmates, and teammates. One of his classmates I know gets the bus to school (not a school bus) with her ten year old sister in fourth class.

I think if everyone parented like you, Op, a disproportionate number of women wouldn't be able to find employment. Cultural expectations of needing to provide childcare for many years, and high costs of childcare negatively impact women. It's just another kind of unreasonable shaming, really.

I'm not sure this has been said yet at 10/11 They should not be coming home to an empty house - I'm pretty certain the rule here is from 13 they can be left for a few hours but not hours on end or overnight until they're 16. Public transport at 10/11 - short journeys maybe (might depend if a single parent and doesn't have support to help with school runs when having to work) but long journeys no, not in my eyes. To me When at primary I wouldn't let them walk to or from on their own. Maybe in the last year I'd stop walking with them a little further away, but most primary schools in the Uk won't release a child unless a named adult who they know is present.

By 16 if they're mature enough, why not? (Some 16 year olds are very mature) They'll have family around the corner no doubt watching and keeping in touch but letting them feel all grown up and learn some independence. From 16 I was allowed to stay home. By 18 you can move out and get married so you need to have developed some independence skills by then or you'll struggle adapting to the real world a little more than those who have experience at being a little more independent.

Now in all countries and all walks of like some kids are left when they shouldn't be, some kids have to grow up way quicker than they ever should! But this happens everywhere.

Oh yes, I've read all her posts now (apologies, should have done it before asking). Think she's just being goady tbh. Just because one person started a thread about a 16 year old looking after cats for 4 days she thinks she can judge the whole UK? I thought that thread was a bit odd myself, would not have left my children alone at 16 to go on holiday. But you can't judge a whole country on the actions of a few individuals who have different attitudes to child rearing to yourself.
Neither would I think it safe for a 16 year old to drive a tractor which apparently happens where she is from.

Which do they find harder? 😉

You are the only one suggesting 10/11 year olds are left all day alone.
I don't know anyone who does this.

It's perfectly normal at 11 years old or 12 if they are autumn born, to either walk, cycle or bus to school.
At 12/13 they start to meet friends in town etc.
It's about enabling gradual independence and them learning how to cope in certain situations.
Perhaps is dangerous where you live?

I am also not from the UK.

I think a lot of the time in the UK, parents' hands are forced by eg how incredibly low their salaries are compared to living costs. They simply can't afford to supervise their children going to school as they need to be at work to make ends meet. And in general, jobs here aren't as flexible as in lots of other countries so even if they could afford to work fewer hours, their employers won't allow it.

Things like after school clubs in the UK tend to also be very expensive - ours charges £12 per child for two hours, which would bring it up to 5.30pm and that's still too early for a lot of parents with full time jobs to be able to collect their children. As a result, children are taught from a relatively young age to be more independent.

I expect I'll get lots of replies saying I'm talking utter nonsense, but this is my take on the situation anyway.

Hi OP, NI here so maybe a foot in both cultures if you like. I have DS just turned 12 who has been letting himself in for half an hour after the school bus drops him off (after navigating public transport to get to the school bus, we are quite rural) for a year now since turning 11. I think the turning point here is the move to secondary which for many children happens a year younger than in ROI. I have many friends over the border with children of a similar age heading to "big" school on September who will only be getting the freedom mines has had for a year already.

Are you from the US OP? I find the attitudes there so unusual where parents go for college tours with their young adults. The 18 year olds have such little responsibility. In this country it would be absolutely frowned upon to turn up to college with your child.

I don't think you're talking nonsense at all.

My two are in Y2/Y4. When youngest had recently turned 4/eldest was 6 I’d have let them play in garden while I worked in house (was still covid so 100% wfh, no wraparound care, various points they were off due to contact & second lockdown). This next school year with them being 5/7 if one was poorly I would let them stay at home while I took the other to school or I’d leave one to drop other at a local activity or them both alone to pop to corner shop or drop off/pick up something at a neighbour (less than 15 min alone). This school year my eldest who is 8 (9 in a few weeks) is picked up from school but then walks home ahead with her friends from
the street while I wait and collect her sister. She also stays at home alone for 30-45 mins between when I leave to take youngest to swimming and when her dad get home. Next year she will walk to/from
School with friends and likely be home for up to an hour on her own on occasion and we will slowly work up. I think when is appropriate to let them do things will vary by child but most 8-9 year olds can surely manage on their own for a short time and understand to call you/go to a specific neighbour/call 999 for help as appropriate if there is an issue. As they get bigger it should be possible to manage for longer periods. By around 14 I’d think they’d be ok left to sort themselves out in the evening if we were out for dinner and by 16 I would imagine they could manage a few days on their own. Honestly when I was 16 I flew to Germany and backpacked between various family friends & a couple of hostels on my own/with the niece of the school exchange coordinator in Germany that swapped with my mums school (she was also 16). I’ve always seen it as a hugely positive thing that was facilitated by me being allowed a fair amount of independence

Absolute nonsense, it’s completely normal for parents to visit universities with their children.

I'm in the UK and I lived on my own at 16! I worked and paid my bills, got financial aid with guidance from my college to help with my rent and was in full time education til 18. All from my own two bedroomed terraced house with a dog, two cats, a parrot and my goldfish.
Didn't need mummy or daddy making my dinner or washing my clothes. I didn't have mum sending me to bed. I tidied my own bedroom without being told to.
I had a part time job washing up at 12 and was earning up to £120 a week as Mmmmmm min the 90's at 12.
You can bet your arse my children are responsible enough to be left for periods at 13 and 11. I'm not even counting my eldest who is more than capable of running her own home if she had to.

They're from Ireland and have to say, I went to Uni Open Days with my kids and there were loads of other parents there so it's hardly unusual in the UK.

Mainly because the kids still appreciate a taxi service at 17/18 and may want a second opinion on different unis though it is ultimately their decision of course.

The OP is Irish. As am I, but I don’t recognise her incomprehension and version of the Irish ‘norm’ at all. Certainly Tusla (child services) would not be involved in children being home alone for an hour or two aged 11, or walking themselves to and from school. Completely normal here in a city. And I can think of numerous fifteen and sixteen year olds spending a few nights solo at home.

I lived in the UK for years and if anything, think the UK norms on children being left alone were (slightly) more conservative.

I certainly agree that younger children of primary school age should not be left alone but 16 is plenty old enough ! I had a responsible f/t job at 16 & my MIL was married with her first child ! It’s all about how responsible the individual is.
I don’t think nationality has much to do with it . My overseas friends are happy to trust their 16yo in the same way .After all a couple of years later many of them will be living independently at Uni - they need to know how to look after themselves!!

OP, you're talking like all children are left for hours every day, and 6 year olds have to spend the holidays alone whilst parents work.
You have seriously misrepresented the U.K. and Ireland.
There is a difference between giving children responsibility and independence, and child neglect

At 16, I was working full time, and living in a shared house with other youngsters, 17-19.
I'd been regularly babysitting, so in charge of 3 younger kids, since I was 11.
My eldest once asked if he could sleep at his friend's (parent's) house. I pointed out that, at 19, he didn't actually have to ask!
I think we're much more cautious/less lax, now.

Friends in Sweden/Austria don't walk their little ones to school, at all. They all walk together in a 'walking bus' - no adults.

My own 13 year old is home alone EOW and frequently during school holidays. Not because I'm lax, but because I have to go to work. He doesn't like it - I don't like it - but I have to go to work. He's too old for the forest school he used to go to in the school holidays, but not, in my view, old enough to be alone as often as he is.
The world is less than ideal, for many of us.

If they don’t start secondary and this is when they start independent travel, this is where the difference is. They start at 11 here, hence being travel trained for high school. Nobody would accept a parent walking them to school at Highgate school or having a childminder at high school.

Wasn't there a person from Ireland who used to post anti British stuff on mn? Haven't seen it for a long time now, but this thread is triggering some memories.

In any case, your life experience seems very limited op.

Oh, and what about babysitting? At 14 I would be responsible for other younger children for an evening/night. I would even sleep over at my next door neighbours when babysitting so I didn't have to stay up late!