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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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9
AWholeExtraRoom · 19/06/2023 09:03

A public school classroom is essentially a public place. There are safeguarding restrictions on who can enter for the benefit of the children but the utterances of the teachers in a classroom while they're teaching are, in my view, public utterances.

A good rule of thumb is if you wouldn't be happy for the public at large to see and hear what you're doing in the classroom in front of all your pupils, and defend your actions accordingly, you shouldn't be doing it.

I don't believe that the student would have been believed or that the teacher wouldn't have twisted events of this recording did not exist, sadly.

I agree there should be clear guidance for teachers on this (Jesus weeps that it's needed!) but you know right from wrong, and telling a pupil she should "go to another school" for suggesting that people who think they're a cat or a cow are mentally unwell is quite obviously abusive and wrong.

off · 19/06/2023 09:07

The teacher could have discussed that telling the cat girl to her face she was mentally not well was inappropriate without going on a personal crusade and rant.

I'm reasonably sure from a second listen that that's not what happened, anyway. A rough transcript of the first few seconds goes something like:

Teacher: How dare you? You just really upset someone, saying things like 'should be in an asylum'.
Pupil: I didn't say that! [Other pupil, simultaneously: …didn't say that!] I just said if they want to identify as a cat or something, then they're, like, genuinely unwell.
Other pupil: And they've gone mentally…
Pupil: Crazy.
Teacher: You were questioning their identity.
Pupil: I wasn't, a question, I was just saying about the genders, I didn't say anything about them.

That sounds to me like there was probably a discussion with another student about identifying as alternative genders, and the girl in the recording brought up cat gender as an absurd example which most people would consider "crazy". The way the girl phrased it, as "I just said if they want to identify as a cat or something", makes it sound like it was her own example, or a reference to an example mentioned earlier, not abuse targeted at an actual catgendered child in the classroom. Otherwise she wouldn't have said "or something".

I guess you could argue that her "I didn't say anything about them" was disingenuous, and by saying that identifying as a cat means you're mentally unwell, she intended to imply that she thought the other student was mentally unwell, which would upset the other student. (Though I thought we were all meant to be accepting of mental health problems these days, so just why it's so offensive for someone to suggest that you may have a mental health problem if you have bizarre beliefs, resulting in distress if you aren't treated or allowed to behave accordingly, is… an interesting one.)

But you could equally say that the example was likely intended to illustrate a general discussion about gender identity, and she really didn't say anything, or intend to imply anything, about the other student. That she was "just saying about the genders" in general, not saying anything about that pupil in particular, and didn't realise the pupil would find it upsetting.

The other pupil might be upset because they inferred that the pupil in the recording was calling them crazy, or because they're not used to having their beliefs about gender challenged and can't tolerate hearing that others don't believe the same as them about gender identity in general. Or the teacher might be completely over-egging the other student's upset, so she can make a point about not sharing opinions others might find challenging. (And given both girls in the recording, without hesitation, jump in to say that the asylum comment is inaccurate, I'm not sure this teacher is reliably reporting what happened.)

Either way, going by what I heard, there was probably no actual catgendered pupil being harangued about their potential insanity.

MysteryBelle · 19/06/2023 09:07

RhymesWithOrange · 19/06/2023 06:30

No, not one iota of sympathy. She bullied and threatened those children who were speaking the truth. If she had been insisting the world was flat would you defend her?

She called “intersex” a third gender which is grossly offensive to people with DSDs.

The children are absolute heroines.

This x1000

SusannaOh · 19/06/2023 09:08

I volunteer with teens and have my own, there is very much an attitude from them, that videoing/recording is the only way you are believed at school. One local school didn't believe the horrendous bullying of a student, or didn't care - I'm not sure which. It was only when it was videoed, put on social media and then concerned parents sent the video to the police, that the school leapt into action.

Lifescary · 19/06/2023 09:10

I don't have a huge problem with voice recording - in most circumstance I think people should have to stand by what they said. I would rather be voice recorded than video recorded which is everywhere. The worry with recordings is they can be tampered with/ edited to be misleading.

There are ways of distancing yourself from foolish policies. 'It is the school policy that X is allowed to identify as a cat. Now please go back to work. ''It is a complicated issue and one we can all learn more about. Now please stop upsetting X and do some work.''You concentrate on who you identify as and leave X alone.'

I wonder what the teacher would do if the disciplined pupil said she identified as the Headteacher and the teacher was sacked.

It is so meaningless this idea of identifying. You can identify as what ever you want but that does not make you it.

I could identify as King Charles but no one is going to spend £150 million on my coronation.

Catspyjamas17 · 19/06/2023 09:11

SusannaOh · 19/06/2023 09:08

I volunteer with teens and have my own, there is very much an attitude from them, that videoing/recording is the only way you are believed at school. One local school didn't believe the horrendous bullying of a student, or didn't care - I'm not sure which. It was only when it was videoed, put on social media and then concerned parents sent the video to the police, that the school leapt into action.

Exactly this.

LocoCocoa · 19/06/2023 09:11

The teacher deserves all the backlash coming to her, an absolute disgrace. Well done those girls! Without the recording this wouldn’t have been believed, I’ve already see TRA’s saying it’s fake.

SunnyEgg · 19/06/2023 09:11

YourMusic · 19/06/2023 08:45

I’m so pleased this was recorded. Parents need to know what is happening in schools. Gender ideology being taught as fact is unacceptable.

So many minimise that this gender ideology indoctrination is happening, on here included. The paucity and bullishness of the teacher’s response was evident.

Those girls did very well and I’m glad there is proof, otherwise it would be many excusing it and downplaying what happened. They wouldn’t be believed.

TooOldForThisNonsense · 19/06/2023 09:13

As for the recording, no as a matter of principle I don’t think covert recording is right. But it happens all the time, people not just in schools/teaching record people/colleagues/managers without consent. People have to be live to the possibility that this could happen at any time. No I don’t like it but it happens and there’s nothing that can really be done to stop it. In this case, who would have believed the girls if we hadn’t heard it. Well done them.

DataNotLore · 19/06/2023 09:15

They were bullying another child.

She pulled them up on it.

She did not deny biological sex.

Insisting that there are only two genders is unacceptable. It's not just an opinion, it's prejudice.

This is the paradox of intolerance re Popper (Google it).

Naunet · 19/06/2023 09:16

Dont aggressively lie to children and try and force them to believe a religion., and you won’t need to worry about being outed as a groomer. 🤷‍♀️

BeverlyHa · 19/06/2023 09:16

Forster2018 · Today 06:22
i’m a teacher. We have mortgages, children to feed. Teachers have been sacked for not acknowledging pronouns.
She didn’t handle it well but she shouldn’t have been secretly recorded.
All teachers are not trans activists.
where is the guidance from the DfE? Why are you coming for teachers, not the medical establishment? Is it because it’s easy to be rude about a female dominated profession?
teachers are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

I am with you, Forster. You are heroes and you should be following your inner core values even if someone decides they are against the grain of leftism.

RhymesWithOrange · 19/06/2023 09:17

@DataNotLore she absolutely did when she said that the sex you are born with has nothing to do with your gender. And when she said there were three sexes. She’s offensively ignorant and gaslighting those children.

SunnyEgg · 19/06/2023 09:18

DataNotLore · 19/06/2023 09:15

They were bullying another child.

She pulled them up on it.

She did not deny biological sex.

Insisting that there are only two genders is unacceptable. It's not just an opinion, it's prejudice.

This is the paradox of intolerance re Popper (Google it).

Do you agree there are three sexes?

BeverlyHa · 19/06/2023 09:18

DataNotLore · Today 09:15
They were bullying another child.

She pulled them up on it.

She did not deny biological sex.

Insisting that there are only two genders is unacceptable. It's not just an opinion, it's prejudice.

This is the paradox of intolerance re Popper (Google it).

:

if crazy weirdos promote unbalanced theories there are more than two genders, does not mean the majority will ever accept that.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 19/06/2023 09:19

CwmYoy · 19/06/2023 08:46

I haven't listened to the recording because I believe it shouldn't have been made. I have read a detailed account of what is said. So I won't add to the clicks.

I have seem commentary elsewhere about the girls involved being in trouble for bullying several times. But attack me instead of the girl illegally recording her teacher. That's the way to keep people in the profession.

Well done.

Why should anyone want to keep teachers like this in the profession?

Hagosaurus · 19/06/2023 09:19

Teachers are responsible for what they teach. Even without DofE guidelines it should be absolutely obvious that you don’t teach something as fact when it isn’t.
Of course in most cases, when teachers do this, a) the kids aren’t brave enough to challenge (who can blame them) and b) the parents never get to find out.
When I send my child to school, I have to completely trust the teachers. Parents ask questions but receive repeated reassurances that everything is ok, when this sort of thing is happening.That is why teachers are getting blasted about this.
I, for one, would be very happy to see EVERY adult (teachers, medical staff, counsellors…) who have been complicit in this have to take responsibility for the damage they have done. Why should they not?

Outofthepark · 19/06/2023 09:21

TeenDivided · 19/06/2023 06:26

On the one hand, students shouldn't be recording in class.

On the other hand, teachers shouldn't be teaching gender ideology as fact and saying alternate views can't be put. If this had just been reported by the students it wouldn't have been believed.

Hopefully this will make teachers take notice about not teaching beliefs as fact. You're not a cat, sex is binary and you can't swap, but you can wear whatever you like and have whatever interests you want.

But the teacher was probably made to take this line by the school and be sacked if they wouldn't, surely?

Isn't it extremely patronising to say 'hopefully this will make teachers take notice' as if they've never taken notice, although they think about educational topics literally all the time? Much more likely they have to toe a line. And it's extremely shitty and entitled to record her.

I'd bet poor bloody teachers are being recorded constantly by students in the hope that they say something scandalous one time over the course of an entire school year and ooooo! Chance for a tiktok that goes viral!! Etc. No wonder it's hard to recruit teachers these days, sounds like a nightmare profession if you ask me.

TooOldForThisNonsense · 19/06/2023 09:21

DataNotLore · 19/06/2023 09:15

They were bullying another child.

She pulled them up on it.

She did not deny biological sex.

Insisting that there are only two genders is unacceptable. It's not just an opinion, it's prejudice.

This is the paradox of intolerance re Popper (Google it).

She said there were 3 sexes.

Redtaper · 19/06/2023 09:22

I would have agreed with you OP but then I listened to the tape. The teacher was aggressive and belittling to her students and talking absolute bollocks . She sounded unhinged.

PronounssheRa · 19/06/2023 09:23

DataNotLore · 19/06/2023 09:15

They were bullying another child.

She pulled them up on it.

She did not deny biological sex.

Insisting that there are only two genders is unacceptable. It's not just an opinion, it's prejudice.

This is the paradox of intolerance re Popper (Google it).

If they were bullying then the teacher should deal with the bullying behaviour

She didnt do that. She demanded pupils agree with an ideology or belief system and then repeated untrue and offensive nonsense about DSD.

Insisting that there are only two genders is unacceptable. It's not just an opinion, it's prejudice.

This is a result of the intentional blurring of sex and gender, I'm not surprised children are confused

TooOldForThisNonsense · 19/06/2023 09:24

TooOldForThisNonsense · 19/06/2023 09:21

She said there were 3 sexes.

My whole post didn’t post…

she said there were 3 sexes. That’s denying biological reality, which is clearly that there are only 2.

it is not “prejudice” to fail to believe in multiple genders.

it is not “bullying” to take the piss out of someone identifying as a cat. Kids at school have taken the piss out of other kids forever and whilst bullying is not on, why on Earth should children be expected to pander to this utter nonsense.

tobee · 19/06/2023 09:25

DataNotLore · 19/06/2023 09:15

They were bullying another child.

She pulled them up on it.

She did not deny biological sex.

Insisting that there are only two genders is unacceptable. It's not just an opinion, it's prejudice.

This is the paradox of intolerance re Popper (Google it).

Rubbish

Redtaper · 19/06/2023 09:25

Nothing wrong with any lesson being recorded if all are aware tbh. No reason any teaching lesson should be top secret.

onefinemess · 19/06/2023 09:26

Why is this even an issue?

The biggest problem teachers have is that they are expected to teach things which they have no business teaching.

The job of school is to teach children how to read, write, and count. That's it. Everything else, politics, religion, ideology, is a parents responsibility. Schools should not be teaching RE, PE, politics, sexual Ed or anything else not related to basic education.

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