To feel sorry for the teacher who was secretly recorded?

[Forster2018]

Link to article here:

That would be fine of it was clearly defined elsewhere that everyone could refer back to. Or a word that had a very consistently held and understood meaning across all groups on society

When it comes to gender there just isn't a definition of explanation that everyone agrees on. Different people use it to mean very different things

It is therefore very reasonable, ina. Group discussion, to ask and expect their to be a "terms of reference" to enable the discussion to be held and those involved to not be speaking at cross purposes.

There's not a lot of point in answering the question about gender at the request of someone who believes that the concept doesn't exist.

@DataNotLore has used the term multiple times on this thread. We're asking what she means when she uses it. So that we can accurately understand her point of view. That's not unreasonable and isn't really relevant to what others have stated. It's her view we want to comprehend.

I can't get over the fact that there's a teenage girl, believing she's a cat and a school not only agreeing with her - but bullying the other children to validate and "be kind" to her. If she was a toddler being a cat or aeroplane or dinosaur would be fine. But she's 12 /13 years old!! How have we got to a stage where professionals think this is OK?
There's a despicable failure on the part of professionals to be responsible adults and get this child the mental health support she needs.

@ilovesooty , I think it’s a slightly different situation from what you’ve just described.

I think it’s perfectly reasonable to ask someone what they mean by the word they’re using ? You know, in order to not make assumptions for example?

If someone is coming out in defence of something , isn’t it in everyone’s best interests to define what it is you’re defending?

Otherwise it’s just a meaningless word salad and really not worth engaging with.

Yet here you are 😁

Haven’t read the gazillion relies, but NO. No, I don’t feel sorry for this teacher. I feel sorry for children, being lied to, indoctrinated, bullied and gaslit by the education system.

@ilovesooty

"There's not a lot of point in answering the question about gender at the request of someone who believes that the concept doesn't exist. Of course people are entitled to their stance whatever it may be but there seems to me to be little point in answering a question like that at the request of someone who isn't going to listen to the response other than to rubbish it."

Exactly! It's another version of the tactic of shouting "can you tell me what a woman is?" at politicians and then triumphantly going "Ha ha! You hate women!!" when they're confused.

Not playing silly "gotcha!" games.

Many of us are here (where we've been for some years) because we're so concerned at the capture of schools and the harm this is doing to children of all ages.
As an experienced teacher/ ex safeguarding lead, the idea that teenagers are being validated in their delusions that they're animals is horrifying, The damage that it's doing to that teenage girl along with undermining the role of a school by teachers engaging in unprofessional activism like this is grim.

The fact that you won't answer the question implies you don't have an answer. Probably you don't. I remember a TRA telling me smugly that gender is 'as complex as quantum physics'. He genuinely couldn't explain it.

I'll tell you how I'd define gender. It's what I was taught at school. While sex is biological (male or female), gender means the social and cultural expectations surrounding each biological sex. It follows that a 'gender identity' is focused on that social role. Where I don't agree with genderists is that it's gender identity that makes someone a man or a woman. A woman isn't someone who wears a dress, just because most dress-wearers are women in our society.

As for all this xenogender stuff... that really does defy explanation. it doesn't seem to have anything to do with biological sex at all.

A question is not a 'gotcha' question if you're able to give a simple, honest answer.

It’s not silly to understand what people mean when they say gender.

It is a bit flakey to opt out though, maybe you’re not sure what it means?

Trying to think of an analogy to explain it.

Take another biological reality: species. For example, we have humans, dogs and cats. We have different expectations (and laws) for humans, dogs and cats in our society. Someone, say an attention-seeking teenage girl, might decide she's actually a cat, so she behaves according to our social expectations for a cat. But the reality is she's not a cat, and she can't expect people to treat her like one (nor would she really want that I'm guessing!) There you go - like species, sex is the biological reality. Gender is the expectations surrounding it.

Feminists challenge (criticise) those expectations. Until recently, all feminists were by default gender critical!

When I use a word… it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.”

Sorry for spam, I'll shut up in a minute. It just occurred to me how you can have cat gender, though. 'Gender' purely means a set of social roles and associations. It doesn't have to be anything to do with male or female. You could have vampiregender, ratgender, cargender. That's where the kids are coming from!

It's all utter bilge, of course.

How can you teach something you can't define and there is no consensus on what it means in practice and instead is down to individuals? Within the National Curriculum and prescribed teaching standards and safeguarding standards?

How can you enforce rules (and indeed laws) when you have no definition of what you mean and there is no legal wording to work from?

"Oh but gender is just a feeling"

Yeah but that's bullshit in practical terms. If it's all in one person's head that can easily clash with the next? Who decides who is 'right' or is that simply based on power and status and dominance over others that comes from that?

And what happens when these feelings clash with existing law? Like the equality act. Or with socially excepted norms? Or biological reality that can not be changed in any way beyond cosmetic appearance?

Then what?

No definition or Rejection of biological just equals a mess of power to be abused and imposed on others without oversight and is justified by a pile of utter bollocks. Aka as word salad to try and intimidate others into silence.

Nope. And indeed nope.

The answer is still no.

Try fucking harder.

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were maybe confused about what the definition of gender is. But when you accuse someone of trying to catch you out with a gotcha moment you come across as a little bit paranoid.

And whilst it’s proving to be a fruitless exercise in understanding what you mean by the words you’re using that doesn’t actually matter . The worth in this convo is letting people read for themselves the utter bullshit that is spouted in the name of gender identity ideology. You’re basically doing my job for me.

Because even though TRAs tend to think that everything is about them, that’s not the case at all. Your inability to explain yourself is really saying everything there is to say about this matter and there’s a veritable crowd of people watching this play out. It is because of these people I continue to push back on misogynist, unscientific woo.

Ive been on Mumsnet for coming up to 18 years and it’ll take a bit more than one confused and or disingenuous poster to stop me.

In future , may I suggest you don’t say things you can’t explain? You’re not doing yourself or your cause any favours. On second thoughts, knock yourself out.

Oh, I see. You would define 'gender' and are totally able to do so if need be, but you won't define gender for us.

Coolio.

If we are basing laws around things, shouldn't there be some sort of definition of the thing?

Law only works with clear definitions that can be understood by as many people as possible.

This is not a gotcha.

This is how law works.

If you don't understand the law how can you ensure you follow it? Or how can you ensure you are protected by it? If the law only works for one group at the expense of a majority it will not have public consent. A law without public consent is not enforcable. You will get mass public dissent. You will create grievance and hostility and therefore deliberate civil disobedience.

Then you have the media. The media communicates messages. This is a two way process. If the media does not engage and reflect it's audience it will stop consuming. The media needs consumption to justify its existence/make money. The media can be used to control. But only to a point. If it fails to connect with an audience it will be rejected and disbelieved.

Where there is an attempt to cross the boundaries of law and order (in this case it's more about the order of things than law tbh), you get problems. A girl can not be a cat. There is no legal basis to it. There is no biological one. There is no social consensus. There is no moral obligation. It is a fantasy in an individuals head. That's it.

Asking others to participate in this lie under threat of punishment creates a feeling of injustice. In the case of a teacher trying to uphold the fantasy in the face of reality and trying to do so by excessive pressure this is an abuse of position and power. This has resulted in the media being called in to hold that abuse of power to account. Whistleblowing is holding power to account.

Now, if you do not understand the concept of power and holding power to account - which includes requiring definitions that quite frankly that's not my fucking problem. That's your own goddam ignorance.

But you don't get to call your lack of understanding power and how it works and people pointing this as a 'gotcha'.

Nope. That's just you trying to gloss over your own bloody ignorance.

When laws and cultural norms are being rewritten around this concept, I think we have every right to ask what it means, even if we don't think we ourselves have a gender ID.

Similarly, as an atheist, if it became mandatory to start practicing a religion in this country, I'd have questions.

Re politicians, how else do we ask if they care about women's rights? We have entered an era where misogynists and homophobes believe themselves "progressive" and an MP could be wishing you happy international women's day out of one side of their mouth, whilst removing the ability for women with PTSD to choose a female HCP out the other side.

Thankfully most people, and certainly most teachers, don't think of children in their care as 'little shits'.

But of course it matters what a woman is.

We are in an absurd situation where female athletes are losing in their own sporting categories to male athletes and female prisoners are being sexually assaulted by male prisoners in women's prisons and politicians are nodding and going, "Yes, this is fine, because trans women are women because of their gender identity."

And then they have the nerve to say they will protect women's rights.

Which women? The ones with the penises or the ones without the penises?

If they can't define what a woman is or what gender identity is then everything they say on this subject is meaningless nonsense, and the fact that they are so determined to spout meaningless nonsense on this topic, where it is so fucking obvious to most people that they are spouting meaningless nonsense, means they can't be trusted to be the voice of sense and reason in relation to other issues. In other words, they're unfit to be in power.

I can't actually believe we've ended up in a situation where people are asking politicians what a woman is, because even 10 years ago everyone would have said you were out of your goddamn mind if you think a woman is anything other than an adult of the childbearing sex, and nobody would have been able to make political capital out of this because nobody would be pretending that someone with a penis can be a woman.

I mean, FFS, we've had Brexit, we've had Covid, there's a cost of living crisis, there's a climate crisis, and yet the most important issue is respecting people's gender identities?

What?

Your gender identity is of no more relevance to the rest of society than your favourite colour or your star sign.

And if you disagree with that statement you damn well need to be able to explain what the fuck a gender identity actually is before it's worth going any further with this debate.

There's not much point speculating on the children's motivations or responses - what matters is what the teacher - an adult with lots of experience and in a position of considerable responsibility - said. Because that was recorded it's very clear what she said.

Great post with very important points. The pushing of this ideology is becoming systemic in the educational system it needs addressing urgently

And if you disagree with that statement you damn well need to be able to explain what the fuck a gender identity actually is before it's worth going any further with this debate.

This country has had years of argument about what Brexit should be without anyone managing to agree how to define it. It caused massive political instability and harm which is now starting to be recognised even by people who wanted Brexit. It was the lack of consensus and tight closed definition that caused the issue. And the argument raged about that and continues to rage.

And what REALLY boils my piss is the people who understood this problem over definitions and lack of consensus and public consent are NOW largely the ones pushing this utter load of monumental garbage in politics - and blaming the others for a culture war' for it.

NO! People who can not define something and push ideology over and above practical and rational applications with clearly laid out goals and objectives which have definitions are the problem.

And I can see us easily leaping into yet another era of naval glazing lunacy rather than being actively functional and productive.

The massive degree of self harm ideology over rationality creates can not be over stated.

And before all this, I have protested against the Iraq war due to its lack of long term objectives/ planning and despaired at the 2008 financial crisis that noone could possibly have seen coming (apart from all of this that did and planned accordingly).

It's all political blindspots and lack of due fucking diligence. People need to pull their heads out of their backsides. It's politicians that are leading us in this utter lunacy and genuinely I think a sizeable number lack the critical thinking and competence to do the job. They are the ultimate over promoted numpties. Men and women citing an ideology which has no definitions when their job is literally to write legal definitions.