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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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9
TheKeatingFive · 19/06/2023 23:12

Can you be both agender and have xenogenders

This is a question for the ages. I wonder what the ancients had to say about it? 🤔

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2023 23:16

TheKeatingFive · 19/06/2023 23:12

Can you be both agender and have xenogenders

This is a question for the ages. I wonder what the ancients had to say about it? 🤔

Let's ask Data given they know that gender has always been a thing...

PriOn1 · 19/06/2023 23:17

I’m trying, and failing, to imagine a classroom where one of the children refuses to speak and meows instead, but isn’t sent out of the class.

If this is the same child, then the restraint the girls in the recording show is even more admirable. Teach, on the other hand, not so much…

Cailin66 · 19/06/2023 23:36

TheKeatingFive · 19/06/2023 17:22

Have there always been 72 genders then?

How did I miss this? I took a lot of history modules in university.

You’re way wrong on 72, it’s currently 107. Under G there is Gender Bender but there is no cat Gender under C cat or F feline. I do know there are cat Gender pronouns. If you’re interested it’s miaow in Japanese.

And no I’m not making this up as I’m a Gender Critical Feminist or TERF for short. That’s because I believe in reality and not hocus pocus.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2023 23:40

PriOn1 · 19/06/2023 23:17

I’m trying, and failing, to imagine a classroom where one of the children refuses to speak and meows instead, but isn’t sent out of the class.

If this is the same child, then the restraint the girls in the recording show is even more admirable. Teach, on the other hand, not so much…

Reading the comments...

"If they identify as a cat, they should be fed cat food. Let's see how long they continue to identify as a cat".

AnyaMarx · 20/06/2023 00:09

So what if you identify as a transgender furry ??

Or a cross boundary furry transgender like you want to
Identify as a stag but your actually a queen cat ?

What then ? Wonder if that teacher would have that answer.

It's all getting beyond ridiculous. We're gonna need toilets for (the self I'd ) hamsters next .

Mummyoflittledragon · 20/06/2023 03:48

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2023 22:28

From that article:

Schools have established protocols when it comes to transgender pupils, but the issue of “furries” is more complex.

Is it simply a spillover from early childhood imaginative play, or the growing phenomenon of cosplay – in which participants dress up as superheroes, aliens, animals or whatever else they choose – being brought into the classroom, where children should be politely told to leave their fantasies at the gates?

Is it a mental health issue, used as a coping mechanism by children who have autism or other difficulties, and who should be treated sympathetically in the same way as other pupils with special needs?

Or does it conceal something much darker going on in the child’s life?
Tracy Shaw, of the grassroots Safe Schools Alliance, said children coming to school and insisting on being addressed as an animal should sound loud alarm bells, and teachers already have all the tools they need to deal with the issue, if they would stop conflating it with gender diversity.

“Teachers should be dealing with this under existing safeguarding frameworks,” she says. “If a child is coming to school identifying as a cat or a horse, that should immediately raise red flags.

“The teacher should be asking themselves, what are these children looking at online? What forums are they on? What is going on in the home? What is happening in that child’s life and who else is involved?

“The problem is that teachers have a blind spot where anything involving identity comes in, because they are frightened of doing the wrong thing. They think they are being kind by affirming these behaviours, but they are not being kind, because they are likely to be missing all sorts of things that are going on in that child’s life.”

The teachers are also letting down other pupils whose education is being disrupted by the affirming of children with abnormal behaviour.

One pupil at a state secondary school in Wales told The Telegraph of a fellow pupil who “feels very discriminated against if you do not refer to them as ‘catself’”. She added: “When they answer questions, they meow rather than answer a question in English. And the teachers are not allowed to get annoyed about this because it’s seen as discriminating.”

The student in question is in Year 11, but began using the pronoun “catself” in Year 9 “when the whole thing with neo pronouns started”, the pupil said.

She described how lessons could be completely derailed if a teacher attempted to get the child to reply to a question in English rather than meowing.

“It’s affecting other people and their education and everybody in their lessons. It’s distracting to sit in a lesson and have someone meow to a teacher rather than answer in English, especially at secondary school age.

“That’s going to take a lot out of a lesson because people are going to spend the entire lesson talking about whoever it is over there meowing to the teacher.

The pupil blamed social media, saying students were being influenced by accounts run by people who identify as trees and animals. It started “around Covid”, she says.

“When it first started, it didn’t really go out into real life that much. It stayed confined to social media, but then as it got more popular and more people were finding out about it, people then started bringing it into real life situations.”

The Telegraph also spoke to a pupil at a school where one student, who identifies as “moonself”, wears a cloak to school, described by a fellow pupil as “like a Harry Potter wizard cape”.
The child in question did not identify as the Moon, but as a moon, and said they could put curses on people.
But while other pupils would be pulled up for wearing non-uniform items, such as facial piercings or dyed hair, children who identified as cats or moons would be allowed to wear cat ears or cloaks to express their “true self”, breeding resentment among other pupils.
Teachers are not helped by the fact that respected organisations to which they might turn for guidance can themselves be caught up in the confusion between cosplay and self-identity

Before concluding:
The Department for Education said the issue of children identifying as animals will not be addressed in the guidance, with a spokesman saying that the department trusted teachers to apply “common sense” in each individual case.
Unfortunately, as parents up and down the country are finding, the problem with common sense is that it is not so common

What the actual fuck have I just read?

To go back to what the teacher accused the girls recording of and to reflect on it: The lunatics have taken over asylum.

Omg that article. I hope the government issues updated guidelines very soon! As for the teacher, even if the girls were out to cause issues, she was in the wrong for threatening the girls.

Perfect28 · 20/06/2023 06:37

@OMG12 so just to be clear if a child was openly racist, or sexist and I as a teacher called that view despicable you wouldn't rest until I was out of the profession?

At no point have I said I agree with the teacher in question, I don't. I don't think anyone does.

And actually if there are parents out there who think despicable views shouldn't be called out (let's be super clear, I am not talking about what is in the video in question) then something has gone very very wrong.

Everyone has jumped down my throat without reading what I've said which is essentially teachers need more guidance and clarity over the trans/self identification/gender issue. We are walking on eggshells and those who think it's as simple as 'theres two sexes just get on with it' don't understand the complexities of a classroom nor the vulnerability of some of these children (mh/safeguarding).

To answer the ops original question I do feel sorry for a teacher being secretly recorded and we have no idea what the student may have said before nor the wider class debate. That doesn't excuse the teacher's behaviour which I'm sure will be investigated.

I'm happy to stand corrected on the intersex thing, thanks to another poster for clarification there and I apologise.

Whatwouldscullydo · 20/06/2023 07:09

To answer the ops original question I do feel sorry for a teacher being secretly recorded and we have no idea what the student may have said before nor the wider class debate. That doesn't excuse the teacher's behaviour which I'm sure will be investigated

I dont think there is anything those girls could have said or done that mens its remotely ok that they can be threatened and gaslit and forced to participate in other kids fantasies.

Forget all this " be kind " crap. Its not the fault of anyone whether they are the nicest person on the planet or the nastiest bully , that gender identity doesn't work without non consenting strangers having to play along.

We should not accept this. Our kids are being used. We don't force them to go to a church/mosque/temple etc to validate religious students.

We don't force all kids to eat vegan and gluten free or go hungry to validate those with dietary requirements.

Why its acceptable that we have to play along with this I don't know.

They were within their rights to say no. Their belief in reality ajd science is a protected one. Tough shit if that clashes.

Perfect28 · 20/06/2023 07:12

Actually students do have to endure a certain amount of religion in their education in the UK. Not pandering to someone doesn't mean it's ok to be a bully. Lots of trans people (and kids) don't feel safe, comments like yours do nothing to help that.

Perfect28 · 20/06/2023 07:14

Your analogies don't stand. If someone is a vegan we all just say 'ok you're a vegan', you do you. why can't you take the same stance here?

Whatwouldscullydo · 20/06/2023 07:15

I dont have to participate in it. Perhaps parents and teachers should explain that to the kids instead of emotionally blackmailing others. Its pure narcissism and entitlement to expect everyone to be a part of your identity. Its your identity. Nothing to do with me. Dont rely on strangers for things you have no right to ask of them. That's what friends and family are for.

Perfect28 · 20/06/2023 07:15

Out of curiosity do you think these lessons shouldn't happen at all full stop? Would that help do you think?

Whatwouldscullydo · 20/06/2023 07:18

I think until theres a coherent definition, terms can be explained without using stereotypes and circular definitions, and everyone understands that they have no right to expect the participation of others then lessons on gender should not be a thing. Perhaps we should spend the time teaching resilience, how not to be entitled instead

Totorosfluffytummy · 20/06/2023 07:21

When kids are taught about religion they are taught that "Christians believe that..." or "Muslims believe that..." with trans ideology teachers are telling the children they have to believe it so there's a huge difference.

SunnyEgg · 20/06/2023 07:24

Perfect28 · 20/06/2023 07:14

Your analogies don't stand. If someone is a vegan we all just say 'ok you're a vegan', you do you. why can't you take the same stance here?

Because it’s fact denying

If a 56 year old male says I’m a 9 year old girl do you say ok you do you?

What do they get to do now you’ve said ok

Cymbal · 20/06/2023 07:25

Perfect28 · 20/06/2023 06:37

@OMG12 so just to be clear if a child was openly racist, or sexist and I as a teacher called that view despicable you wouldn't rest until I was out of the profession?

At no point have I said I agree with the teacher in question, I don't. I don't think anyone does.

And actually if there are parents out there who think despicable views shouldn't be called out (let's be super clear, I am not talking about what is in the video in question) then something has gone very very wrong.

Everyone has jumped down my throat without reading what I've said which is essentially teachers need more guidance and clarity over the trans/self identification/gender issue. We are walking on eggshells and those who think it's as simple as 'theres two sexes just get on with it' don't understand the complexities of a classroom nor the vulnerability of some of these children (mh/safeguarding).

To answer the ops original question I do feel sorry for a teacher being secretly recorded and we have no idea what the student may have said before nor the wider class debate. That doesn't excuse the teacher's behaviour which I'm sure will be investigated.

I'm happy to stand corrected on the intersex thing, thanks to another poster for clarification there and I apologise.

Gender critical views are nothing like racism or sexism. Why do you persist in comparing GC views to terrible opinions?

Your post comparing GC views to nazism was rightly deleted, and you continue to paint legally-held beliefs in a very negative light.

Totorosfluffytummy · 20/06/2023 07:28

Teachers should not be teaching about any subject they do not understand. The teacher in the recording and the teacher on this thread are both clueless regarding sex and gender. It's not even teaching: it's a form of indoctrination and has no place in schools.

GodHelpTheOutcasts · 20/06/2023 07:29

The point of religious education in schools isn't to indoctrinate, it's to promote tolerance.
That's why the nasty unpalatable bits like the homophobia and misogyny are left out and schools push the bits they have in common with athiests-eg giving to charity, being kind etc.
The national curriculum has recently changed e move away from looking at how religious prayer is conducted, the icons and buildings etc to trying to make these links between people of all faiths and athiests. Eg asking big overarching questions like why do we mourn the dead, environmental issues.
If the UK government are recognising that in a UK where religious extremists blow up children, lessons in how those adherents 'do' that religion are likely to be counter productive, then surely they need to take the same tack with the religious beliefs of gender ideology.
People seeing real world harms of religion don't take kindly to being preached that they are 'good' or true, especially when they are not.

MargotBamborough · 20/06/2023 07:30

Totorosfluffytummy · 20/06/2023 07:28

Teachers should not be teaching about any subject they do not understand. The teacher in the recording and the teacher on this thread are both clueless regarding sex and gender. It's not even teaching: it's a form of indoctrination and has no place in schools.

In that case nobody should be teaching about gender in schools because nobody understands it. Because it's nonsense.

I would be happy with that outcome.

blinksy · 20/06/2023 07:32

Perfect28 · 20/06/2023 07:14

Your analogies don't stand. If someone is a vegan we all just say 'ok you're a vegan', you do you. why can't you take the same stance here?

Did you really just compare being a vegan to someone identifying as a cat?

Whatwouldscullydo · 20/06/2023 07:33

Totorosfluffytummy · 20/06/2023 07:28

Teachers should not be teaching about any subject they do not understand. The teacher in the recording and the teacher on this thread are both clueless regarding sex and gender. It's not even teaching: it's a form of indoctrination and has no place in schools.

Schools should also revise their policies on where they get their information about what they teach from. We don't accept work from kids that references Wikipedia. We wouldn't accept information from some random off you tube. You'd not ask your dentist about how to rewire your house. Or call a plumber round to give medical advice on your sick rabbit.

So why do schools listen and teach stuff amd invite people in to speak to children when they have no background in child development, education etc

Who on earth thought that would be a good idea.

MargotBamborough · 20/06/2023 07:36

Perfect28 · 20/06/2023 07:15

Out of curiosity do you think these lessons shouldn't happen at all full stop? Would that help do you think?

Well they didn't happen when I was at school. And the number of people I know in my generation who has had their sex organs removed is one.

So yeah I think it probably would help.

Whatwouldscullydo · 20/06/2023 07:38

The fact its all so " top secret" should Lso ring alarm bells
When dd1 had the hygiene lecture at primary school, they had a mums and daughters session. We were invited in. Parents were also invited in to be briefed on the rse lessons. We were able to ask questions amd see the material and the resources they used were listed on the web site.

Now parents are losing cases in court to see what is being taught. At what point do we go " hang on a minute, if you are doing nothing wrong why are we worried it gets recorded or filmed or made public knowledge etc "

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 20/06/2023 07:40

This is utter madness.

The school does no favour to the girl who identifies as a cat. Surely the best for her would be for the school to refer to Child Protection services to make sure she's in a safe environment and for CAHMS to have a chat, instead of accepting that she is, indeed, cat gender? Whatever that is, because how on Earth do you live socially and culturally as a cat?

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