Page 25 | To feel sorry for the teacher who was secretly recorded?

nothingcomestonothing · 19/06/2023 16:09

Perfect28 · 19/06/2023 16:04

@nothingcomestonothing Perhaps some people feel like that but it has to come in to the 'debate' when you really boil down 'what does it mean to be male or female'- is it internal organs or external ones? Does one get precedent? Or is it genetic makeup (let's remember that most of us will never know our DNA mapping) and that overrides physicality?

What?

The vast majority of humans have chromosomes and physical characteristics which are very clearly those of one sex or the other. A very small number have a DSD where one or both of those things may be different from the standard configuration, and every one of those people is also of one sex or the other.

No one needs to follow any squirrels about DNA mapping here, because that teacher was 100% wrong to say that there are 3 sexes, there are not.

SueVineer · 19/06/2023 16:10

Forster2018 · 19/06/2023 06:22

i’m a teacher. We have mortgages, children to feed. Teachers have been sacked for not acknowledging pronouns.
She didn’t handle it well but she shouldn’t have been secretly recorded.
All teachers are not trans activists.
where is the guidance from the DfE? Why are you coming for teachers, not the medical establishment? Is it because it’s easy to be rude about a female dominated profession?
teachers are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

The teacher chose to call the children bigoted and tell them they should change schools. Absolutely no one else’s responsibility but hers. She should be punished

TooOldForThisNonsense · 19/06/2023 16:10

There are multiple genders. There always have been. Nobody ever manages to actually refute this, and people who try generally end up resorting to insults.

this is the problem. People can think or identify as what they like. But you can’t force other people to accept what they say of themselves is true.

and there haven’t always been “multiple genders”. When I was growing up (I’m 50) no one was trans or NB. There were men, women and transsexuals who had undergone a sex change (usually older men). Transvestites ie men who were still men but wore women’s clothes. No “multiple genders”.

and a teenage human identifying as a cat is crazy. Could those kids have expressed that better yes but they are 13. Aren’t we always being told that their young brains are still developing? I’d express it more politely at 50, but cat kid would be left in no doubt that I did not accept their identity as valid and would not be going along with it.

SueVineer · 19/06/2023 16:13

blackbird77 · 19/06/2023 15:55

I am a Biology teacher and am Gender Critical. I will openly say this to other teachers and SLT if pressed. I will be not teaching children things like 1000 genders exist or that individuals can change their biological sex. I teach students biological fact, not fantasy. Even amongst my own science department, I am a minority voice which is utterly shameful. If you can't rely on science teachers to hold firm then who can you trust? Thing is, I don't even think any of them even believe it. They're just going along with it because they have fallen for the progressive misguided educational view that every student whim and feeling, however irrational, must be placated to or given credence.

I am appalled by the gender ideology going on in schools. It's a massive breach of safeguarding and I will absolutely not socially affirm a child who wants to identify as the opposite sex without firm parental permission. If I am ever asked to keep a secret from a parent about a child, I would seriously consider resignation over it. You wouldn't keep an eating disorder or talk about self-harm or suicide from a parent about their child so why would you keep this from them? It's a huge safeguarding risk. It prevents parents from seeking support and help for their child and needs to be treated like any other mental unwellness. Socially affirming children is not a passive or neutral act. Doctors and nurses have recently been advised they cannot do this either.

I am sick of this capitulation to what is nothing more than a social contagion. Why are teachers so willing to throw away their professional reputation, their integrity and their natural reasoning skills just to pander to a minute minority of the population who will most likely change their mind about it in a few months? It actually boggles my mind so much.

Good for you. Thanks on behalf of the sane parents and our children

TheKeatingFive · 19/06/2023 16:14

Good for you. Thanks on behalf of the sane parents and our children

Seconded 👏

Bathsheba1983 · 19/06/2023 16:16

blackbird77 · 19/06/2023 15:55

I am a Biology teacher and am Gender Critical. I will openly say this to other teachers and SLT if pressed. I will be not teaching children things like 1000 genders exist or that individuals can change their biological sex. I teach students biological fact, not fantasy. Even amongst my own science department, I am a minority voice which is utterly shameful. If you can't rely on science teachers to hold firm then who can you trust? Thing is, I don't even think any of them even believe it. They're just going along with it because they have fallen for the progressive misguided educational view that every student whim and feeling, however irrational, must be placated to or given credence.

I am appalled by the gender ideology going on in schools. It's a massive breach of safeguarding and I will absolutely not socially affirm a child who wants to identify as the opposite sex without firm parental permission. If I am ever asked to keep a secret from a parent about a child, I would seriously consider resignation over it. You wouldn't keep an eating disorder or talk about self-harm or suicide from a parent about their child so why would you keep this from them? It's a huge safeguarding risk. It prevents parents from seeking support and help for their child and needs to be treated like any other mental unwellness. Socially affirming children is not a passive or neutral act. Doctors and nurses have recently been advised they cannot do this either.

I am sick of this capitulation to what is nothing more than a social contagion. Why are teachers so willing to throw away their professional reputation, their integrity and their natural reasoning skills just to pander to a minute minority of the population who will most likely change their mind about it in a few months? It actually boggles my mind so much.

@Blackbyrd i agree with everything you’ve said but the thing is, teachers have lost their jobs over this. If I lost my job because I refused to accept a child’s pronouns etc (and I would say my school is actually fairly non-woke when it comes to all this craziness) then it would be totally disastrous for me and my entire family. Teachers can’t win.
also listen to what the teacher said - that biological sex is different from gender. A lot of uber trans activists would say actually you can change biological sex. What she said wasn’t that contentious. It was the tone and manner she got wrong.

JaneSeeMore · 19/06/2023 16:17

We have mortgages, children to feed.

Not sure what point you are trying to make here. You think people who do other jobs don’t have these expenses and responsibilities? At least you have a more secure job than those of us in the private sector who could be made redundant at any time (it’s happened to me 5 times and I’ve got another 15 years of my working life still to go).

Teachers have been sacked for not acknowledging pronouns.

And? You think that doesn’t happen in other sectors? You’re no more special than anyone else. People have lost jobs in other industries for mis-gendering people, using the wrong pronouns. Where I work it comes under the bullying and harassment policy and people have been fired for falling foul of it. And guess what? They have mortgages and children too!

Peverellshire · 19/06/2023 16:17

She doesn’t deserve to be publicly shamed.

I don’t think she really understood biology, as her misconceptions showed, and wasn’t articulate or seemingly very bright? Rather than pushing any agenda, it felt like someone with rather poor comprehension (polite), not approaching something with intelligent nuance (as we’d hope)but rather dim dogmatism.

SunnyEgg · 19/06/2023 16:19

blackbird77 · 19/06/2023 15:55

I am a Biology teacher and am Gender Critical. I will openly say this to other teachers and SLT if pressed. I will be not teaching children things like 1000 genders exist or that individuals can change their biological sex. I teach students biological fact, not fantasy. Even amongst my own science department, I am a minority voice which is utterly shameful. If you can't rely on science teachers to hold firm then who can you trust? Thing is, I don't even think any of them even believe it. They're just going along with it because they have fallen for the progressive misguided educational view that every student whim and feeling, however irrational, must be placated to or given credence.

I am appalled by the gender ideology going on in schools. It's a massive breach of safeguarding and I will absolutely not socially affirm a child who wants to identify as the opposite sex without firm parental permission. If I am ever asked to keep a secret from a parent about a child, I would seriously consider resignation over it. You wouldn't keep an eating disorder or talk about self-harm or suicide from a parent about their child so why would you keep this from them? It's a huge safeguarding risk. It prevents parents from seeking support and help for their child and needs to be treated like any other mental unwellness. Socially affirming children is not a passive or neutral act. Doctors and nurses have recently been advised they cannot do this either.

I am sick of this capitulation to what is nothing more than a social contagion. Why are teachers so willing to throw away their professional reputation, their integrity and their natural reasoning skills just to pander to a minute minority of the population who will most likely change their mind about it in a few months? It actually boggles my mind so much.

Good on you.

HoofWankingSpangleCunt · 19/06/2023 16:22

I think @Peverellshire raises a very valid point. I would hope that teachers would have a certain level of intelligence in order to fulfil their roles competently. Certainly there was a lack of intellectual rigour missing from this conversation. Whilst I don’t expect staff to have read the latest article in the BMJ , this particular teacher displayed a breathtaking ignorance in both subject matter and approach.

MargotBamborough · 19/06/2023 16:23

Perfect28 · 19/06/2023 16:04

@nothingcomestonothing Perhaps some people feel like that but it has to come in to the 'debate' when you really boil down 'what does it mean to be male or female'- is it internal organs or external ones? Does one get precedent? Or is it genetic makeup (let's remember that most of us will never know our DNA mapping) and that overrides physicality?

Huh?

Trans women have male internal organs and male external organs. They don't have any female organs.

Peverellshire · 19/06/2023 16:24

HoofWankingSpangleCunt · 19/06/2023 16:22

I think @Peverellshire raises a very valid point. I would hope that teachers would have a certain level of intelligence in order to fulfil their roles competently. Certainly there was a lack of intellectual rigour missing from this conversation. Whilst I don’t expect staff to have read the latest article in the BMJ , this particular teacher displayed a breathtaking ignorance in both subject matter and approach.

Spot on. Was she actually a Biology teacher?

Messyhair321 · 19/06/2023 16:26

teacher should be sacked, its not right to shame a child and call their beliefs 'despicable' and 'very sad', it has nothing to do with the teacher, they are only there to teach, not to preach their own values and prejudice

MargotBamborough · 19/06/2023 16:27

noblegiraffe · 19/06/2023 14:59

Noblegiraffe, there is no such thing as a trans kid so yes, I’m saying they don’t exist.

I didn’t say trans kids, I said trans people.

If you disagree that people can identify with a gender different to their biological sex, are you saying that trans people don’t exist?

Because the law doesn’t agree.

You can believe that trans people exist without needing to believe that gender is real, just like you can accept that Christians exist without needing to believe that God is real.

NotTerfNorCis · 19/06/2023 16:29

Sympathy with both sides.

Public shaming is awful and shouldn't happen (unless someone has done something really bad).

On the other hand, teachers shouldn't be enforcing extremist views and shutting down debate. I'll never forget my history teacher, who was a Stalinist. He set us an essay, 'was Stalin a psychopath ', then gave me an E grade for writing in an essay that he probably was, given what he got up to. I always wanted to have that out with him now I'm an adult, on an equal footing. But it's too late.

Myalternate · 19/06/2023 16:29

This will in all likelihood end up with ‘the teacher has been spoken to and that’s the end of the matter’
They have to stick together…

noblegiraffe · 19/06/2023 16:35

MargotBamborough · 19/06/2023 16:27

You can believe that trans people exist without needing to believe that gender is real, just like you can accept that Christians exist without needing to believe that God is real.

Show quote history

I agree.

And if you agree trans people exist then you agree that there are people who do not identify with their biological sex. Whatever that means.

So the teacher was correct to point out that sex and gender are different and that some people identify with a different gender to their biological sex.

People keep going on about kids being taught that they can change sex but this is not at all what was being said here.

RavingStone · 19/06/2023 16:37

Perfect28 · 19/06/2023 16:04

@nothingcomestonothing Perhaps some people feel like that but it has to come in to the 'debate' when you really boil down 'what does it mean to be male or female'- is it internal organs or external ones? Does one get precedent? Or is it genetic makeup (let's remember that most of us will never know our DNA mapping) and that overrides physicality?

This makes no sense!

I can't tell if you're being willfully slippery or if you're innocently repeating misinformation you've been taught.

The reference to DNA concerns me as it is getting a little close to one of the racist tropes in trans ideology (eg transwomen are women just like black women are women, also sometimes used to justify male bodies in women's sports).

Or is it a clumsy attempt at the (also offensive) "intersex" gotcha?

Regardless it's a great example of why today's children deserve solid, thorough, unbiased science teaching. Let trans ideology be an embarrassing relic of my fellow millennials as we age.

Perfect28 · 19/06/2023 16:41

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Perfect28 · 19/06/2023 16:43

This cannot just be taught through biology as it encompasses psychology and sociology. If you just have biology teachers saying 'theres 2 sexes, end of conversation' how are students who are questioning their identity meant to feel?

HoofWankingSpangleCunt · 19/06/2023 16:44

@Peverellshire If this teacher is a Biology teacher then I’m a bloke called Barry.

NotTerfNorCis · 19/06/2023 16:46

Perfect28 · 19/06/2023 16:43

This cannot just be taught through biology as it encompasses psychology and sociology. If you just have biology teachers saying 'theres 2 sexes, end of conversation' how are students who are questioning their identity meant to feel?

They should consider why they think they are in the wrong body.

Not feeling in step with the cultural stereotypes surrounding your sex doesn't mean you're not that sex. The healthy answer is to challenge the stereotypes.

DataNotLore · 19/06/2023 16:51

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The paradox of tolerance. It's a tough one to swallow but necessary.

Many, many cultures outside of modern western civilisation have more than two genders. I'm not going to start listing them because Google exists.

Sex exists too.

As does gender- it's not all about physical sex, there's psychology and sociology involved too. Pretending that very basic biology is all that matters, denies the vast complexity of human existence. Citing the experience of your grandparents in 1920's Surrey does not nullify that.

There have always, always been more than two genders. Sex and gender are often linked but not always the same.

MargotBamborough · 19/06/2023 16:52

noblegiraffe · 19/06/2023 16:35

I agree.

And if you agree trans people exist then you agree that there are people who do not identify with their biological sex. Whatever that means.

So the teacher was correct to point out that sex and gender are different and that some people identify with a different gender to their biological sex.

People keep going on about kids being taught that they can change sex but this is not at all what was being said here.

Show quote history

Right, but accepting that some people don't identify with their biological sex is one thing.

Believing that this is actually a problem that society needs to go to great lengths to resolve, at the expense of everyone else's rights and safety, is quite another.

Have a gender identity if you wish. But I don't want to be involved in it against my will or expected to put myself out in any way to accommodate it.

DataNotLore · 19/06/2023 16:53

And at no point, did that teacher claim that people can change sex.

She probably just wanted those girls to stop abusing the other girl, who has no voice in any of this.