Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Adam Kay and his husband’s babies

434 replies

MatildaTheCat · 18/06/2023 17:38

Apologies if this has already been covered.

I read in the paper this morning that AK and his DH have welcomed TWO babies into their lives, born to two different surrogates. One child is six months old and their sibling is two months old.

I genuinely cannot wrap my head around this. It seems so very odd to me. Is it a case of ‘one each’ or ‘get the baby stages over asap’?

Obviously nobody but the two parents can answer this but AIBU to find this really quite disturbing?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
CovetedAsFuck · 18/06/2023 20:24

Joey2323 · 18/06/2023 20:09

But babies don’t consent to anything?

The pp was making the point that even if a surrogate has ‘consented’ that doesn’t cancel out the ethical implications of how surrogacy (i.e. being intentionally conceived as part of a plan to remove them from their mothers at birth) affects babies.

Whether a baby can consent to anything at all is beside the point.

(That should have been apparent, though. It almost 🤔 reads as if you were deliberately misunderstanding)

Zipidydodah · 18/06/2023 20:26

Babies don’t consent to being born drug addicted due to their mothers doing drugs through their pregnancy. Babies don’t consent to being born to mothers who starve, beat and kill them either. Babies don’t consent to being born with fetal
alcohol syndrome now estimated to be 7 - 16% of all births in the uk. So that argument is nonsensical.

I have no idea who this person is but there is no evidence that I’ve ever seen that demonstrates that children raised by gay fathers are in anyway more or less likely to be ‘damaged’ than children raised by any other group and to say so seems homophonic to me.
Happy for someone to link peer reviewed scientific study that prove otherwise.

sigfey · 18/06/2023 20:26

I'm anti commerical surrogancy but think it's incorrect to try and imply children inherently suffer by not staying with their biological mother.

Most of the research from adoption studies isn't genralisable - the circumstances that lead a child to be adopted including prenatal exposures are not the same as a happy healthy woman (in case of truely altruristic surrogacy) choosing to go through pregnancy for someone else.

Cyclebabble · 18/06/2023 20:26

I wish Adam and his partner well. I am sure they will be great parents. Well done to the surrogates who have helped them achieve this. Surrogacy is just another way where dedicated people can help people become parents. For many women this may be the only route they have. I do not understand the pushback here.

Embarra55ed · 18/06/2023 20:28

Zipidydodah · 18/06/2023 20:26

Babies don’t consent to being born drug addicted due to their mothers doing drugs through their pregnancy. Babies don’t consent to being born to mothers who starve, beat and kill them either. Babies don’t consent to being born with fetal
alcohol syndrome now estimated to be 7 - 16% of all births in the uk. So that argument is nonsensical.

I have no idea who this person is but there is no evidence that I’ve ever seen that demonstrates that children raised by gay fathers are in anyway more or less likely to be ‘damaged’ than children raised by any other group and to say so seems homophonic to me.
Happy for someone to link peer reviewed scientific study that prove otherwise.

the fact that they are gay is not relevant. It’s the fact that they bought their babies and permanently removed them from their mothers at birth. It would be equally abhorrent if it were a straight couple doing this so don’t make it about homophobia because it isn’t.

He is a repulsive individual.

angelicaelizapeggy · 18/06/2023 20:28

Hated the book- he seemed to have such contempt and disgust for birthing women’s bodies. And yet he has needed to use the very thing he seemed so disgusted by to have his baby.

Americano75 · 18/06/2023 20:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TheGander · 18/06/2023 20:31

KohlaParasaurus · 18/06/2023 20:00

He couldn't cope with being a junior doctor; he's really going to love the reality of parenthood.

🤣🤣

Zipidydodah · 18/06/2023 20:32

Cyclebabble · 18/06/2023 20:26

I wish Adam and his partner well. I am sure they will be great parents. Well done to the surrogates who have helped them achieve this. Surrogacy is just another way where dedicated people can help people become parents. For many women this may be the only route they have. I do not understand the pushback here.

Because MN has a certain section of ‘feminists’ who believe that women are too stupid to make their own choices and that they need better women to make their choices for them. They see no issue with demanding bodily autonomy for women no matter what when it comes to abortion up to and including being able to terminate a full term pregnancy but no bodily autonomy if it is surrogacy? So although pro-choice apparently means you can not have any ‘buts’ or limits to bodily autonomy but for surrogacy there suddenly is. That and rampant homophobia

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 18/06/2023 20:33

beatrice14 · 18/06/2023 20:18

Adam Kay sounds disgusting - I am young but I would never talk like that nor would anyone I know - and product of his time isn't an excuse - my mother was a medical student at that time and she says she never heard anyone behave like that
(for context, I'm 17)

Until reading this thread, I thought surrogacy is alright if no money is involved and the person fully consents-now I'm not sure.. I was not aware of the potential attachment issues for the baby - are most children adopted at birth affected this way or only some, or very few? I'd always thought adoption was a good solution if the mother didn't want to raise the baby, but it seems to be far more complicated than it's often portrayed, (something for the people in the US who say repealing Roe vs Wade is alright because unwanted babies can be adopted to think over). Does adoption later have less or more issues- I'd always thought at birth would be better as the child wouldn't miss their birth parents, but perhaps it's not.. it's very difficult..
Which, I'm really sorry about your husband. But not every child who is adopted at birth, or whose mother is ill when they're born and can't breastfeed them etc will experience trauma- nobody can speak for all children who experience a particular thing.
My cousin (early 20s) was exposed to great mental trauma in her first year of life because her mother was in an abusive relationship, to the point where her mother, over the six months after they left, thought she might never recover emotionally . She now is happy and says she has not been affected long-term by it, as far as she can tell. Someone else might have been damaged for life - if only there was some way of knowing what tips the balance..

Regarding surrogacy.

essay

I was an altruistic surrogate for some friends, carrying and giving birth to twins. It was an incredibly traumatic experience, and afterwards I had to receive treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). I never talk to anyone about my experience as I still find it utterly devastating.

We only ever hear about the positive stories in the media, pushed by the organisations that promote surrogacy. It is important that people hear about how surrogacy can go seriously wrong, and the life-long impacts of that on the women who offer their bodies to be used by others.

I became a surrogate for some friends. I naively believed that because the births of my own children had gone well, it would also be simple for a surrogacy pregnancy. I thought I’d done a lot of research and I did talk to some other surrogates before embarking on it.

However, I agreed to go ahead before I knew enough about the extremely intrusive and harmful medical procedures I would need to go through. I naively thought I would simply have the embryos implanted in line with my own menstrual cycle. I did not realise my own natural cycle would have to be chemically halted, and the amount of harmful and synthetic hormones I would have to take to create an artificial cycle that was in line with the egg donor’s.

Once I discovered the amount of hormones I would have to take, I felt like I could not back out and devastate my friends. I went ahead against my own better judgement and my internal instincts which were warning me – because I did not want to cause offence or upset my friends.

I was also persuaded to have two embryos implanted to increase the chance of successful implantation. I now realise I did not fully understand the increased risks for myself of carrying and birthing twins.

Looking back, I see that I subjugated my own health and safety to prioritise the desires of the intended parents. I also realise that my own psychological state at the time of making these decisions meant that I had a martyr complex and that I was too self-sacrificing. I completely deprioritised myself. This was due to a lack of self-esteem and assertiveness, and seeing my value lying only in how useful I was to others. I had an over-developed sense of ‘service.’

This is common in women, as female socialisation means that women and girls are encouraged and trained to put themselves second, and to prioritise other people, and to be ‘kind.’ This female socialisation and psychology needs to be investigated, researched and considered in the context of altruistic surrogates.

Throughout the pregnancy I experienced unexpected jealousy and anger from the intended mother who was upset that I could fall pregnant so easily. Both parents put pressure on me about how and where I would give birth. I had to be very assertive to make it clear that it was my body, and that the physiological process of birth works best when the mother feels completely safe and births in the way she is most comfortable with. I had to be very clear that the decision making lay with me alone.

I felt that they believed that to some extent they ‘owned’ me and my uterus, and that they ‘deserved’ to direct the birth because they saw the babies as ‘theirs.’

The birth ended up being extremely traumatic with one baby being admitted to the neonatal intensive care unit (NICU), and me suffering second degree tears.

Then a horrific two year nightmare began as the midwives moved quickly to blame me and make false claims that I prevented them from assisting in the birth. This blaming is a familiar experience to women who suffer traumatic births, in an NHS culture that will do everything it can to avoid liability in medical negligence claims. There were four separate investigations by the independent midwifery regulatory body who found all the midwives guilty of failure to intervene in an emergency, and failure to monitor foetal health during the birth. The trauma of the birth was compounded by the trauma of being blamed and then enduring multiple investigations over two years which ultimately exonerated me. Rather than moving on with my life after surrogacy, I was having to relive the trauma over and over during the investigations.

After the birth I was more or less completely abandoned by the intended parents, left to fend off the lies and victim-blaming by the midwives, left to endure the multiple investigations alone. The intended parents did not support me, nor did they defend me during the multiple investigations.

Most hurtfully I was not invited to the twin’s christening. I was used for my uterus, and then discarded when I was no longer needed. It was the most degrading and horrific experience. My mental health collapsed, and two years after the traumatic birth I was diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and received treatment.

I never talk about what happened to anyone, not even to close relatives, as I do not want to relive what happened to me. It wasn’t until the Law Commissioners’ consultation that I ever spoke about this.

I am left with birth injuries, incontinence, and with diastasic recti (separation of the abdominal muscles) which all cause me daily problems. I do not know what the long term health impacts will be of taking large amounts of synthetic hormones, nor the potential increased risk of breast cancer as I did not breastfeed the babies.

I am now completely against ALL surrogacy, both commercial (which is completely immoral in my view) and altruistic unpaid surrogacy. The potential for abuse is too great. Women should not be encouraged to endanger their emotional and physical health and safety for other people’s ‘need’ to have babies. Women matter. Women should not be encouraged to put ourselves second, and to risk our lives for other people.

I recommend that ALL surrogacy should be made unlawful as other countries have done. The law should not be changed to make it easier to exploit women, both women who are vulnerable through poverty and those who are simply well-meaning and ill-informed like me.

I also often think of the poor, young female student in Eastern Europe who had to endure egg harvesting and the life-long consequences of that, to pay for her studies. There is very little that is ‘ethical’ about surrogacy.
From: I was an altruistic surrogate and am now against all surrogacy

The Law Commission’s Surrogacy Consultation: How to bamboozle through a dangerous new law | Nordic Model Now!

The UK Law Commission is running a consultation on proposals that would open up surrogacy in the UK, including provisions for paying birth mothers and allowing the advertising of surrogacy-enabling services. This article provides an overview of these p...

http://nordicmodelnow.org/2019/08/15/the-law-commissions-surrogacy-consultation-how-to-bamboozle-through-a-dangerous-new-law/

Zipidydodah · 18/06/2023 20:37

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision

a quick google search will bring up many many articles of a completely different pov where the surrogate has had a positive happy experience 🤷‍♀️

One person’s experience isn’t definitive of the whole group

Embarra55ed · 18/06/2023 20:38

Zipidydodah · 18/06/2023 20:32

Because MN has a certain section of ‘feminists’ who believe that women are too stupid to make their own choices and that they need better women to make their choices for them. They see no issue with demanding bodily autonomy for women no matter what when it comes to abortion up to and including being able to terminate a full term pregnancy but no bodily autonomy if it is surrogacy? So although pro-choice apparently means you can not have any ‘buts’ or limits to bodily autonomy but for surrogacy there suddenly is. That and rampant homophobia

Homophobia is a red herring as I said above.

It is naive at best to think that every woman who agrees to become a surrogate is making a free and informed choice. Commercial surrogacy asks someone to put their life at risk in return for payment. What kind of financial/mental state would you need to be in to consent to that? Organ selling is illegal; what is the moral distinction?

GailBlancheViola · 18/06/2023 20:40

I have no idea who this person is but there is no evidence that I’ve ever seen that demonstrates that children raised by gay fathers are in anyway more or less likely to be ‘damaged’ than children raised by any other group and to say so seems homophonic to me.

It's got fuck all to do with homophobia (or homophonia even) it is do with the sale and purchase of children, you know actual living breathing human beings that is the issue.

Whichwhatnow · 18/06/2023 20:40

beatrice14 · 18/06/2023 20:18

Adam Kay sounds disgusting - I am young but I would never talk like that nor would anyone I know - and product of his time isn't an excuse - my mother was a medical student at that time and she says she never heard anyone behave like that
(for context, I'm 17)

Until reading this thread, I thought surrogacy is alright if no money is involved and the person fully consents-now I'm not sure.. I was not aware of the potential attachment issues for the baby - are most children adopted at birth affected this way or only some, or very few? I'd always thought adoption was a good solution if the mother didn't want to raise the baby, but it seems to be far more complicated than it's often portrayed, (something for the people in the US who say repealing Roe vs Wade is alright because unwanted babies can be adopted to think over). Does adoption later have less or more issues- I'd always thought at birth would be better as the child wouldn't miss their birth parents, but perhaps it's not.. it's very difficult..
Which, I'm really sorry about your husband. But not every child who is adopted at birth, or whose mother is ill when they're born and can't breastfeed them etc will experience trauma- nobody can speak for all children who experience a particular thing.
My cousin (early 20s) was exposed to great mental trauma in her first year of life because her mother was in an abusive relationship, to the point where her mother, over the six months after they left, thought she might never recover emotionally . She now is happy and says she has not been affected long-term by it, as far as she can tell. Someone else might have been damaged for life - if only there was some way of knowing what tips the balance..

Not in any way trying to speak for everyone who was adopted at birth, I never said I was. Just a bit pissed off at someone else trying to do exactly what you're now implying I'm doing - speaking for all adopted babies (or bought babies)

53andABitPodgy · 18/06/2023 20:42

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GCalltheway · 18/06/2023 20:44

Salvadoral · 18/06/2023 17:51

💯

Agreed

Austenland · 18/06/2023 20:48

Surrogacy should be banned.

I’m not surprised such a vile, misogynistic man feels it’s ok to exploit women, rent their wombs and buy babies.

Zipidydodah · 18/06/2023 20:48

Embarra55ed

There are many legal things that women can do that are often not free from the potential to be abused. Many, many surrogate pregnancies are altruistic….are you suggesting that they are mentally unstable?
Either woman (actually all
people !) have bodily autonomy or they don’t.
Regarding organ donation …. I don’t consider this to be organ donation (if the organ you refer to is the womb - then surrogates don’t give it away permanently?) and I am very happy for people to donate bone marrow, kidneys and portion of their livers altruistically.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 18/06/2023 20:51

I'm astounded anyone is defending commercial surrogacy tbh. It is a hideously exploitative practice and I'm so glad it is officially illegal here.

Genuine altruistic surrogacy still isn't great - we don't know really how harm is done to the child by severing the bond with the mother so abruptly and so soon. The only evidence is that it does harm the child, though we don't know for sure if the data we have hold true for surrogate children. On balance I think it is best not to deliberately create children you know are likely to be harmed on their very first day of life.

But more importantly it is impossible to successfully ban commercial surrogacy but allow altruistic. So I'm in favour banning both.

Hardbackwriter · 18/06/2023 20:58

Zipidydodah · 18/06/2023 20:48

Embarra55ed

There are many legal things that women can do that are often not free from the potential to be abused. Many, many surrogate pregnancies are altruistic….are you suggesting that they are mentally unstable?
Either woman (actually all
people !) have bodily autonomy or they don’t.
Regarding organ donation …. I don’t consider this to be organ donation (if the organ you refer to is the womb - then surrogates don’t give it away permanently?) and I am very happy for people to donate bone marrow, kidneys and portion of their livers altruistically.

I am very happy for people to donate bone marrow, kidneys and portion of their livers altruistically.

But only altruistically? So is that also your view on surrogacy?

ArabeIIaScott · 18/06/2023 21:03

Cyclebabble · 18/06/2023 20:26

I wish Adam and his partner well. I am sure they will be great parents. Well done to the surrogates who have helped them achieve this. Surrogacy is just another way where dedicated people can help people become parents. For many women this may be the only route they have. I do not understand the pushback here.

Surrogacy is just another way where dedicated people can help people become parents

Yeah, you can just buy them! Is that what you mean by 'dedicated'?

ArabeIIaScott · 18/06/2023 21:04

WiddlinDiddlin · 18/06/2023 19:56

@WhenIWasAFieldMyself and those songs were written and being gigged years earlier than the album release...

Yes he still thought that was funny and acceptable, as did his song-writing/performing partner... but my point still stands - do YOU think everything YOU did, thought, said, when you were in your late teens/early twenties, stands up to scrutiny now?

I doubt it. Particularly if you're performing those words in front of crowds of people egging you on, paying you, laughing and positively reinforcing you.

Ah, it was the audience's fault he wrote such misogynistic drivel. I see.

OhComeOnFFS · 18/06/2023 21:06

Nomorenonbinary · 18/06/2023 17:39

Surrogacy is people trafficking anyway.

I completely agree with this. I can't believe it's legal.

U2HasTheEdge · 18/06/2023 21:09

TeaKlaxon · 18/06/2023 20:16

Do you have any idea how insulting it is to describe any child as ‘damaged’.

A child might have experienced trauma and might be living with ongoing effects of that trauma. That does not make them ‘completely damaged’.

It is ignorant and offensive to claim they are.

I agree.

As someone with childhood trauma, as well as having a loved one who was removed from their mum, this is insulting. Living with the effects of trauma is exactly what it is.

We know that trauma can have such a significant impact on children, that isn't in dispute. I am also very against surrogacy for this very reason.

No child is completely damaged though, and should not be referred to as such.

adviceneeded1990 · 18/06/2023 21:10

JemimaTiggywinkles · 18/06/2023 20:51

I'm astounded anyone is defending commercial surrogacy tbh. It is a hideously exploitative practice and I'm so glad it is officially illegal here.

Genuine altruistic surrogacy still isn't great - we don't know really how harm is done to the child by severing the bond with the mother so abruptly and so soon. The only evidence is that it does harm the child, though we don't know for sure if the data we have hold true for surrogate children. On balance I think it is best not to deliberately create children you know are likely to be harmed on their very first day of life.

But more importantly it is impossible to successfully ban commercial surrogacy but allow altruistic. So I'm in favour banning both.

Should pregnant drug addicts and alcoholics be subject to forced termination under these thoughts? Plenty of babies are damaged by their biological parents pre- birth and from the first days of life…