Adam Kay and his husband’s babies

[MatildaTheCat]

Apologies if this has already been covered.

I read in the paper this morning that AK and his DH have welcomed TWO babies into their lives, born to two different surrogates. One child is six months old and their sibling is two months old.

I genuinely cannot wrap my head around this. It seems so very odd to me. Is it a case of ‘one each’ or ‘get the baby stages over asap’?

Obviously nobody but the two parents can answer this but AIBU to find this really quite disturbing?

I dgaf about someone's 'joy', if it means causing trauma to a baby.

What’s the right situation, out of interest? Because earlier in the thread you seemed to be in support of commercial surrogacy provided the parents seemed really great on social media.

I never said that at all, everything I said was taken out of context. I am not willing to engage with you as you are clearly the sort of poster who thinks you are 100% right and has no interest in discussing things.

I’d love to discuss it if anyone could provide a reason for why it should be allowed that isn’t based on the person commissioning the whole thing just really wanting it.

If you’ve got a different reason or would like to explain the scenarios where it is ok and why those differ from the ones where it’s not ok then I’d be really interested to hear those.

I don't believe you are interested though really so I just can't be bothered to get into some huge row online with a stranger.

Just one example though, if I want to be a surrogate for my sister I should be able to if that is their only chance of having a baby. Why should you decide that it's morally wrong. You can disagree with people being paid for it if thats how you feel, but I don't understand how anyone can disagree with surrogacy in principle. Being paid or not, the risks and outcome are the same.

https://twitter.com/CIAMS_Coalition/status/1709927554952638826

'Today, the European Parliament has overwhelmingly approved a bill to prohibit #surrogacy in all EU States, as it's TRAFFICKING of women and commercialization of newborns.'

https://surrogacyconcern.uk/2023/06/19/whats-happening/

https://stopsurrogacynowuk.org/

'Many people assume surrogacy in the UK takes place between friends and relatives. This is increasingly not the case: many parental orders are granted to parents who bring babies in from abroad, often conceived and carried through commercial surrogacy arrangements which are illegal here. And the ‘altruistic’ model sees strangers matched via surrogacy agencies, with many thousands of pounds changing hands: effectively buying babies off their mothers. Surrogacy, in all forms, is illegal throughout much of the world: in allowing surrogacy at all, the UK is an outlier. The proposals in this Bill would make this worse.'

It is possible to imagine a scenario where it seems absolutely the right thing for a woman to lovingly and voluntarily become a surrogate, with much love and satisfaction all around.

It is also possible to imagine a terrible situation where the surrogate, paid or unpaid, is not treated well.

So that is a real ethical dilemma I think, how to legislate for the best there.

Also, what happens if the surrogate parents, ultimately, struggle with coping? I think there are supports in place for fostering and adoptive parents, checks etc. I'm not sure what happens with surrogacy. Might the birth mother be offered the chance to have the child back?

Children in care can have a dreadful experience, it would be a great shame to think of someone acting as a surrogate and then to have that child end up in care.

The thing is that while people have a lot of compassion and feeling for the commissioning parents, and sometimes some for the woman carrying and bearing the child, my concern is for the baby.

Babies who are taken from their mother suffer. Why is there so little concern for the baby?

I am truly interested.

I can imagine that it is something I might be prepared to do for my own sister, if she asked me.

But I also know that because I love my sister so much, it’s something that I would never ever ask her to do if the tables were turned. The risks to her are so great - by asking her to do it I’d be prioritising my own selfish desires over her life and health. What kind of person really does that to someone they love?

When the ties are less close - a friend or colleague for example - it’s even less justifiable.

A poster upthread has described the huge potential for emotional manipulation and exploitation and the fallout that can arise in these supposedly “altruistic” surrogacy arrangements.

Can you imagine agreeing to do this for your sister but then deciding during the process that you weren’t comfortable with it. Would you feel able to pull out? What if you gave birth to the baby and then decided you didn’t want to hand it over - would you feel able to do it?

No one has any idea how they’d really feel about any of it before it happened so any “consent” wouldn’t be true consent. It has the potential to ruin lives for all involved.

There have been horrific stories of commissioners rejecting a baby when the baby turned out to be disabled.

And other horrible stories about the birth mother changing her mind but being refused permission to see or be involved in her baby's life.

'The Law Commission are recommending:

• legal parentage moves from the surrogate mother at the point of granting the parental order, to the point of birth, meaning the birth mother is never listed as the mother of her own baby,
• they are also recommending a minimum of age of just 21 for surrogate mothers in the UK,
• reducing the time limit that a woman has to change her mind to just six weeks from delivery,'

I can envisage a situation in which surrogacy has minimal harms (eg sisters doing it for each other, maintained contact between birth mother and baby).

However globally those situations are the rarity and what is much more likely is a situation where one person is taken advantage of/explored and the babies needs are considered secondary to the IPs needs. So for me legislation is needed to protect the most most vulnerable women and outlawing all forms of surrogacy seems the best way to protect women.

Realistically of course altruistic surrogacy could always take place because you could just do it. Commercial surrogacy could also but surrogacy rates seem to be a lot lower in countries with strict legislation. I suppose because the vast majority of people do not want to break the law.

That's a big assumption, given that many posters have said they have suffered infertility and miscarriages, and are against surrogacy. I'm an adopter, as I've said on the thread. I am against surrogacy in any form.

Your post, like surrogacy itself, only considers the wants of the purchasers. No one is falling over themselves in eagerness to deny joy to others, what a strange take. I haven't seen one post saying any version of 'well I had the kids I wanted so others shouldn't get to'.

Surrogacy is human trafficking. It's renting a woman's body and buying a child. You seem to have no thought for the possible risks and trauma to the woman or the baby, only the wants of the purchasers.

• “legal parentage moves from the surrogate mother at the point of granting the parental order, to the point of birth, meaning the birth mother is never listed as the mother of her own baby,”

^ This is horrific and should never be allowed. Mother who carry and birth babies should always ALWAYS have legal rights over the baby at birth (except of course where there is risk to the baby). For me this is a fundamental thing that should not change EVER. I’m horrified this is a possibility.

In that case, if someone is happy to sell their baby, knowing that it will bring that couple great joy, why shouldn't they be allowed to do it?

That's what human trafficking is.

Why is that not ok but surrogacy is ok?

I agree it's unlikely you would ask but if I offered I would have considered all the risks. The reasons you have stated are why such strict regulations should be in place.

Adam kay is a hideous person, and the worst sort of misogynist

I feel sorry for those babies

But how could you ever regulate for the risks described?

Even if regulations eg allowed the surrogate to decide to keep the baby after the birth that is a whole family torn apart.

You’ve said “it’s unlikely you would ask” - I guess because you recognise how unfair it is to put someone you love in that position. If it’s not something you would feel comfortable asking a loved one to do, then why is it ok? And why is it ok when it’s not a loved one but someone who is poor and vulnerable? (As it is in the majority of cases).

Prescisely.

The fact that surrogacy is legal, puts relatives or close friends - always female - to feel obliged to offer even if they aren't asked.

If surrogacy wasn't legal there wouldn't be this internal pressure for women to do this.

And thats why its ALWAYS problematic.

Neil Patrick Harris and David Burtka served a buffet of meat designed to look like Amy Winehouse’s decaying corpse at their Hallowe’en party in 2011 (don’t Google it, seriously) so they wouldn’t be my first choice as exemplars of definitely-not-misogynists morality, tbh.

Fair comment, it was vile. People make mistakes though, they do lots of work for LGBT groups and supporting gay families etc now and are much respected in those communities. They do come across as good parents, I may be wrong and it isn't the basis for me feeling the way I do about surrogacy.

@MyNumber1Rule Twin pregnancies take an even bigger toll on the woman's body than singleton pregnancies so actually the fact that they had their surrogate carry two babies at once (which was presumably cheaper than using two different surrogates) suggests they had even less respect for her welfare.

I wouldn’t mention it if I didn’t think it was relevant; it speaks to a deeply misogynistic worldview. They were already parents when the party took place so I don’t accept that it can be dismissed as an error of carefree youth.

I don't think they needed to worry about the money 🙄 I don't know the medical background of the surrogate or why the decision was made to put in 2 eggs, I don't know them personally so can't really discuss that.

A twin pregnancy is high risk regardless of your medical background, so you don't need to know about that.

I'm sure they did have enough money to pay two surrogates. That doesn't mean they couldn't still be cheapskates. I doubt they paid that woman twice what they would have paid her to carry a single baby.