Not to want our children to eat red meat?

[Flymeaway4]

I'm vegetarian, have been for 20 years, partner is not. Since before they were born, I've said I'll let them have chicken, fish etc, but not red meat including pork. Once they're old enough to properly understand that meat was once an animal, then they can decide for themselves whether they want to eat red meat too, or be vege if they like, their choice. Partner thinks I'm ridiculous and said "why can't she have a ham sandwich" at a party yesterday, "what harm will it do". There were plenty of other options there anyway: chicken, cheese and egg sandwiches, quiche, fruit etc.

In case you think it's relevant, my reasoning behind no red meat is that I think cows and pigs are too intelligent, they know exactly what is happening when they arrive at the abattoir and I think that's just too cruel (and lambs are babies). Allowing chicken and fish, until they can make their own informed decision, was my compromise. If it were purely up to me, I'd be happy raising them vege!

So, am I being unreasonable?

So my point is how many souls died for the crops to be grown to feed the pigs (which, due to food conversion ratios, would have fed a lot more humans) before the pigs are then also gassed/ stabbed? Veganism is avoiding animal exploitation as far as practicable and possible. There is research to suggest that very few mice die being caught in harvesters etc but many will die from predation and that is possibly due to losing the cover of the crops, although they do change their behaviour and move to hedge grows etc. There is no way to live without harming others but we can cause the least harm, nor deliberately exploit or kill, and live broadly in line with our ethics if we choose to.

I hate your logic that chickens are ok to be slaughtered!!! I’m pregnant with my first, I am vegan and will raise my child to be veggie but mostly a vegan diet.

@Scrowy @Watchkeys I read that there's vegan manure too (not just fertiliser), not sure how effectively it works though! I guess most manure is from grass fed animals anyway.

@kikisparks

There is no way to live without harming others but we can cause the least harm

How? And how can we be sure?

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard! I also see the irony in you judging animals on their intelligence when your rationale completely lacks intelligence. Let your children eat a healthy, balanced diet and then when they are old enough, do some research together on the pros and cons of eating meat. Perhaps you will also then become more informed about farming practices and animal welfare in this country. If you don’t want to eat meat, that’s entirely your choice, but please don’t push incorrect information or your own opinions on others.

I'd be more concerned about the welfare of the chicken than of a lamb.

I would insist on only buying meat that can be traced to a proper free-range farm. Pigs and chickens are often factory farmed.

You are being totally unreasonable forcing your choices on your children!! If their dad is eating it then so should they until they are old enough to understand the process and decide for themselves, by restricting their diet this early on you are likely to create intolerances and allergies in future 🤦‍♀️

@GCalltheway the climber Dave MacLeod addresses various dietary issues including meat-only diets and they certainly work well for him. He also has an MSc in nutrition amongst other things. He's got various videos up on youtube that definitely concur with the PPs personal findings that their health improves when eating meat.

So my point is how many souls died for the crops to be grown to feed the pigs (which, due to food conversion ratios, would have fed a lot more humans)

I would love to see what the reaction would be if you put a bucket of pig swill on the dinner table and said "no bacon today, it's more efficient if you eat it direct". Never mind the taste, lots of what pigs eat is not stuff that humans can easily digest.

Who has ever been allergic to ham? 🤣 so many nonsense replies. Maybe YOU are restricting your childs diet by not offering tofu and lentils. When was the last time your child ate a lentil curry or green pea pasta?

Doesn't work for me. I feel tired and put on weight. When we were poor we lived on a lot more legumes and root veg and less meat. We were both anaemic.

I'm always amused that raising children vegetarian is "imposing your views on them but raising them meat eaters isn't.

It's saying what they can't eat, even at parties when most children can eat what they want even if they don't have it at home. Why not let them try a ham sandwich at a party? Many omnivores have children who choose not to eat meat for a period, and all parents I've known have catered to their children's preference.

Well that's a disappointing non-answer!
The question, or one of them, I was trying to pose is, do we have a right to bring an animal into the world for the sole purpose of eating it?
Taking into account all the environmental concerns, the suffering the individual animal will experience, as well as the effect on everyone else involved in the process of getting that animal to the point of being sold as pieces of meat.
Hunting a wild animal for meat so long as it's a quick clean kill (I know nothing about hunting so don't know how realistic that is) seems a whole lot better to me than breeding a lamb, an animal which is susceptible to a whole host of problems, raising that animal and eventually killing it for meat.

@Flymeaway4 What makes you think fish are not intelligent just like pigs and cows?

Having kept many marine animals over many years I can infect tell you many have a great deal of intelligence and personality.

I have had many marine fish who recognise different people when the walk in the room and have taught them many things. I had one trigger fish who would make a barking noise when he was hungry or wanted his belly rubbed. He would also make loud clicking noises when people who had previously tapped on the glass walked in the room. He would even gently eat out of my hands which I would not personally advise to ane one under normal circumstances as it would quite easily take your fingers clean off.

Aside from the ridiculous scare mongering about red meat in here, it’s actually one of the most nutrient dense foods you can get and is packed with vitamins that aren’t easily accessible in portion sizes for any vegan, let alone a child.

I’d be much happier with my child eating a reasonable portion of quality red meat a couple of times a week personally.

Milk unfortunately blocks the body from absorbing iron so unless they’re eating dry cereal (my son bizarrely enjoys eating dry cheerios!) they won’t be getting much iron intake from the cereal

We’re vegan so don’t use cow’s milk with cereal.

you being a vegetarian is fine. But you say your kids can make their mind up when they are old enough, but your forcing your beliefs on them. Be vegetarian for as long as you like but don’t force it on your kids. You can’t cook red meat then let hubby do it for them.

Eating meat is also forcing your beliefs on them... every decision we make for them is 'forcing our beliefs on them', we are all just doing what we deem to be our best for our family.

YANBU OP!

some people are obsessed with meat - they literally eat it everyday, they think a meal isn’t a meal without it, etc.

NOBODY at all NEEDS meat

@cazwelsh80

exactly

@Baba197 "Milk unfortunately blocks the body from absorbing iron"

Drinking "excessive amounts" of milk can reduce (not block) iron absorption. This can be a problem for older babies and toddlers who are taking in so much milk that they are not eating enough solid food. I don't think a bit of milk on an iron rich cereal is an issue.

I agree, you know very little about sheep farming, or farming at all. I live in a country where agriculture is very important to the economy, and used to work in a shop which sold farming supplies, so I know just how much money is spent by farmers on things to keep their animals healthy. An unhealthy animal is not what farmers are aiming for, and while there will always be a few farmers who don't look after their animals properly most do. The ignorance about farming on MN threads astounds me sometimes.

I agree. There have been several posts on this thread from people saying how wonderful their meat free diet is, and how healthy they are, then telling us they take supplements! Unless someone has a medical problem they should be getting all they need from a balanced diet. I also agree that the scaremongering is ridiculous - you would think anyone who had a ham sandwich is going to drop dead within hours.