Not to want our children to eat red meat?

[Flymeaway4]

I'm vegetarian, have been for 20 years, partner is not. Since before they were born, I've said I'll let them have chicken, fish etc, but not red meat including pork. Once they're old enough to properly understand that meat was once an animal, then they can decide for themselves whether they want to eat red meat too, or be vege if they like, their choice. Partner thinks I'm ridiculous and said "why can't she have a ham sandwich" at a party yesterday, "what harm will it do". There were plenty of other options there anyway: chicken, cheese and egg sandwiches, quiche, fruit etc.

In case you think it's relevant, my reasoning behind no red meat is that I think cows and pigs are too intelligent, they know exactly what is happening when they arrive at the abattoir and I think that's just too cruel (and lambs are babies). Allowing chicken and fish, until they can make their own informed decision, was my compromise. If it were purely up to me, I'd be happy raising them vege!

So, am I being unreasonable?

@redboxer321 you were the one who told me a post was irrelevant when we were having what I thought was a relatively civilised discussion.

I do genuinely believe that things like Disney have played a part in the changing Western attitudes to animals over the past few decades, btw. I wasn't just being facetious.

@redboxer321 it's like you post all this stuff to goad people and then like to play the victim when they react - really odd. Maybe re read all of your posts on here and see how immature you sound.
I may be a little more blunt that the pp backs you've had up on this thread but its purely because I think you need telling straight sometimes because you just don't seem to listen.

but I think the human race is feeling increasingly guilty, embarrassed and ashamed at what we are doing and what we have become.

This maybe you and what you think but if this is the case why are less than 2% of the uk population vegan and why do around 84% of people that try the vegan/vegetarian lifestyle fail within the first 3 months. I'll leave you to your thoughts, I actually give in trying to make sense of them.

I came on here originally to let the OP know the situation with cows and their intelligence as someone who's at the abattoir weekly as she seemed to think they were more intelligent than chickens. I have many of both and don't think so.

I agree with @redboxer321 about guilt. My reasons for this are that when I tell people I'm vegan (something I try hard to avoid) almost invariably I get one of two reactions.
The first is that people go to lengths to tell me how they would themselves be vegan if it weren't for (insert reason), how little meat they consume, how ethically sourced it is etc. Now, I am always careful to tell people that I'm vegan for my health, avoiding bringing any ethical comments into the discussion, say as little as possible on the subject, and point out I ate meat myself for decades. So their justifications are neither prompted or required by me. Yet still they offer them.
The second reaction is the one most common on these threads. They feel the need to lecture me on the importance of meat in the human diet. How the welfare issues are exaggerated. That I must be deficient in this or that. That I'm a hypocrite because I fly. That fake meats (which i dont eat) are "worse". That i must live a joyless existence. That im too thin. Often the shape and purpose of human teeth will crop up. Again, all unsolicited, often delivered with a zeal bordering on aggression. Given my diet impacts them not at all, you don't need to be a psychologist to imagine that somehow it touches a nerve.
Obviously there are people comfortable in their choice to eat meat. For these people others being vegan is a non issue. However I encounter far fewer of these than the other types.

People take offense at anyone doing things differently to them though, it's not just the meat issue. You only have to read an MN thread about shoes on or off in the house to see how baffling and infuriating people find choices that differ from theirs.

@5128gap that's fair enough. I haven't said I've got any issues with anyone being vegan even with my job it's a total non issue to me what other people do. My issues on here have arisen in defence to misconstrued comments. Im not sure if you've read the full thread, there's some really bizarre posts with statements made backed up with very little evidence. I stand by every single one of my posts on here and if you'd read them you would see I have zero issues with people choosing not to eat meat but I can't stand the BS comments about farming.

Farming gets a bad press, I get that, I really do but after this thread and the way people try to express themselves, I can now see why vegans get the bad press they do too. Such a shame really, it's all a waste of energy, what happened to 'each to their own'?

So bloody true! 😂

No, @JudgeAnderson
I didn't tell you your post was irrelevant. I said: "Not sure how your next post is relevant?" But rather than answer my question, and I am still perplexed as to how talking about what people ate in caveman times is relevant, you came back with an arsey reply. "Oh sorry, is that not relevant enough?"
I take your point about Disney btw. Yet to think about it properly but it is worth thinking about.
I was rather blindsided by your reply as I too thought we were having a relatively civilised discussion. Never mind.

@backbritishfarming
Good god! Talk about projecting.
I haven't tried to goad anyone and I'm certainly not playing the victim.
The number of childish insults you've thrown my way and you call me immature.
You accuse people of preaching and then say: "you need telling straight sometimes because you just don't seem to listen." When you are clearly one of the most closed minded people I've come across.
But look there's really no point in this so in your own words: "Please leave me alone from your nonsense."

Everything that @5128gap is true. You can't just tell people you're a vegan, when it is necessary to do so, and it be a non-issue. It's very tiring.

@redboxer321 you need to grow up.

@redboxer321 saying my post wasn't relevant is saying it's irrelevant though? They literally mean the same thing. The fact that I responsed like that surely shows you it didn't read well?
I was finding it an interesting thought exercice to explore the subject further.

@backbritishfarming oh dear, you really are out of ideas aren't you? I do hope you will stop with the personal attacks now.

@JudgeAnderson I didn't say your post was irrelevant! I asked how is it relevant and I still don't know.
This post: "In fact, expanding on this, the utilisation of animals was the key to our survival in the colder northern parts of the world for millenia. We needed the meat, fat, skins and fur of the animals we hunted to keep us alive.
There's a reason why aurochs feature so prominantly in cave art all over Europe."

How is that relevant to the discussion we were having?

With regards claims made about the number of vegans in the UK, a quick google check tells me this (from YouGov):
2-3% of the UK population are vegan and the vegetarian population is about 5-7%.
Most vegans started off as vegetarian and most vegans became vegan in the past five years.
With regards the failure rate, I'd guess it might have something to do with people being given a hard time for being vegan (see upthread).
Anecdotally, there is evidence that people are cutting back on the amount of meat and dairy they consume for various reasons.
There's Veganuary - I don't have the figures as to how many people take part.
But it's pretty clear that things are changing.

It's relevant because the fact that we have evolved to eat meat is relevant to whether we choose to eat meat now.

There will always be people who eat it, people who care about animal welfare, vegetarians, vegans, because we are omnivores, and we have a choice, and we are all different. It's not that things are changing, it's that we are more able to connect. 30 years ago, you wouldn't have known about the other vegans 50 miles away from where you live. Now, you can form a group together on social media. And promote your cause. And pick up some followers. But until you start offering a theory that holds true, you'll drop people as quickly as you pick them up. It's hard to fight against evolution, and even harder to convince someone else to. It's debatable whether it's wise to, and that's the debate here.

@redboxer321 you are making passive aggressive comments, and personal insults, which is why you're being told to grow up. As hominem attacks don't further your argument.

How is that relevant to the discussion we were having?

Because it's literally about humans and meat-eating? If you're floundering with the comprehension then I can't help you.

I think you might be arguing about 2 things here. Caged/battery/factory farming, mass production, supersized abattoirs and everything on the scale that it's at today, simply to feed our over populated nation and planet 3 portions of meat every single day (because to most people, a meal isn't a meal unless it includes meat), is not the same thing as cavemen hunting a wild rabbit once a week, killing it quickly themselves and eating all of it, using the skins etc. I personally have never argued against humans being omnivores, but to argue that cavemen ate meat, therefore all of the above is justified is ridiculous and a massive overreach. I don't think people in general should feel guilty about eating meat in itself, but if you don't feel guilty about how that meat has made it to your plate in order to feed the nations insatiable appetite for excess meat, then maybe you should have a rethink.

if you don't feel guilty about how that meat has made it to your plate in order to feed the nations insatiable appetite for excess meat, then maybe you should have a rethink

I'm not sure if you mean me or just in general but I do a meat order from a high welfare organic farm every couple of months and that is the only meat that I eat so no rethink required.

Clearly I don't mean you, but you surely know that's not the norm

@Watchkeys
The OP has put it better than me and explains why I couldn't see why it is relevant. I now see why some people would think it is relevant (thanks for that) but please note that when I didn't see the point, I was effectively called stupid.

If I've posted passive aggressive posts and personal insults, then I apologise but I don't think I have in the main. Perhaps I'm wrong. I'm not sure this thread has brought out the best in many of us. I've taken a shit load of abuse from one poster, as well as had a number of passive aggressive comments made to me, people completely missing the point, refusing to engage with questions they don't like but going on about the same old stuff, and so, if I haven't always replied in the best possible way, then I think that's at least in part understandable.

You asked previously who owns Red Tractor. I'd decided to walk away from this thread at that time. I don't want to illicit any more replies from one poster but basically it's the industry regulating itself and I'm not sure how well that works. Not only industry owned but industry funded.

Final point, a previous poster said that dogs and cats were a big part of why there is over fishing. Or words to that effect. They were going to get a paper on it because I found it hard to believe. If the paper was ever posted, then I missed it. But what do people think is done with all the waste parts of a fish that humans don't eat? Surely this is what goes into pet food? And even if it's human grade food (a term that means very little and has no legal standing), then that's not to say it's the same part of the fish that humans eat but it's produced to the same standard. I'm not saying pets don't have an environmental impact, of course they do.

Nobody is really here to see how much you've been attacked or your methods of defending yourself, though. You seem to think that those things are relevant to the thread, but that the evolution of mankind and meat eating isn't. People will balk at that.

People eat meat because they evolved to. This is not affected by farming techniques. Killing a cow cruelly today doesn't mean we evolved differently. So the question really is how can evolution/what cavemen ate not be relevant. It is bred into the structure of us. We cannot dismiss the value of meat in the human diet any more than we can dismiss our teeth or our digestive structures. It is just there, and undeniably. Feel your canines with your tongue right now: you are the product of a species that succeeded via meat eating.

I only mentioned the personal attacks on me for reasons already documented. People are of course free to write what they want and people are also free to ignore what they want.

Do you honestly think that people eat meat because their ancestors did? There are loads of reasons why people eat meat and many have nothing to do with our ancestors. I don't care that my ancestors ate meat. My ancestors led a different life to me and ate different food. It may be relevant to you, it may be relevant to others but it is not relevant to me. And I am only speaking for myself as we all are. I choose to not eat meat regardless of what my ancestors did or didn't do. I haven't always made that choice. Other people are free to make their own choices.

In some ways I have more time for people who say I know how much of the world's meat is produced today but I am going to eat it because I want to as opposed to those who site what our ancestors did, say how it makes them feel better, how they eat it because they've got a health condition, say that they only eat high welfare meat... Because that sounds like a bunch of excuses to me in the main at least.

In some ways I have more time for people who say I know how much of the world's meat is produced today but I am going to eat it because I want to as opposed to those who site what our ancestors did, say how it makes them feel better, how they eat it because they've got a health condition, say that they only eat high welfare meat... Because that sounds like a bunch of excuses to me in the main at least.

And this right here is what gets people's backs up.

It's not about 'eating what our ancestors did', it's about how we've evolved. It's about what our bodies, our current bodies, have evolved to do. Our ancestors are not present, but our evolution is.

say how it makes them feel better, how they eat it because they've got a health condition, say that they only eat high welfare meat... Because that sounds like a bunch of excuses to me in the main at least

I eat meat because I tried being a vegetarian for years, and a vegan for a while, and I couldn't find a way to make it suit my digestive system. If you want to think it's an excuse, that doesn't make a blind bit of difference. I speak for me. Why don't you speak for you? Why are you saying it's just your opinion, and then making judgemental comments about whether other people are lying? You don't eat meat because you would be making excuses if you said any of those things you listed. Unless you think that everybody is or should be the same as you, morally, financially, physiologically, then what you think of what other people should say or should do makes no difference. And yet you call for relevance on the thread.

'Others can eat meat but I say they're all feeling guilty and lying to cover their sins' is an unpleasantly judgemental and patronising way of viewing the majority of the population. You don't seem to get that.

I'm sure you'll want the last word. Best of luck.

There's new research emerging about how our ancestors evolved and what part meat-eating played. Lots of revision on the subject and new questions being raised. It doesn't discount the role of meat but it does question established beliefs. Take a look around the internet, you may be surprised.
That means when you talk about evolution, you're only expressing an opinion too and one that might increasingly be at odds with modern research.

You also make points are that just untrue but there's no point in rehearsing those now.

I'm not so much saying that people are lying, more that they might be deluded. They see what they want to see, feel what they want to feel... about any number of things. You may feel better if you eat meat but I'd be interested to know why that is and if it's really all to do with digestion. We'll never know obviously.

Anybody is free to who have the "last word" on this thread btw.

I have holes in my tongue 😂

I think this person is insistent on goading people as they clearly have nothing better to do. It's even every time someone tries to reason with her/him, another goady post follows. There is no reasoning with some people, my way or the highway, you're flogging a dead horse I'm afraid with your valid points ....wait for it.....

Take a look around the internet, you may be surprised

You clearly know best. As I said, best of luck. Oh and thanks for the point about the last word. I genuinely hadn't realised that either. I thought I was in charge of that.

@backbritishfarming

There is no reasoning with some people, my way or the highway, you're flogging a dead horse I'm afraid with your valid points ....wait for it

Quite. When someone start arguing against you with research that proves your point and not theirs, you've really got to question the reasoning skills. Was 'dead horse' a deliberate pun?

I think you saying that you’ll allow your older to pick a ham sandwich if she so chooses is a bit odd - if she’s never been allowed to eat ham or doesn’t know what it is, why on Earth would she choose it… be default she’ll never pick it… so your argument of she can choose it if she wants is a bit of a fib…