Not to want our children to eat red meat?

[Flymeaway4]

I'm vegetarian, have been for 20 years, partner is not. Since before they were born, I've said I'll let them have chicken, fish etc, but not red meat including pork. Once they're old enough to properly understand that meat was once an animal, then they can decide for themselves whether they want to eat red meat too, or be vege if they like, their choice. Partner thinks I'm ridiculous and said "why can't she have a ham sandwich" at a party yesterday, "what harm will it do". There were plenty of other options there anyway: chicken, cheese and egg sandwiches, quiche, fruit etc.

In case you think it's relevant, my reasoning behind no red meat is that I think cows and pigs are too intelligent, they know exactly what is happening when they arrive at the abattoir and I think that's just too cruel (and lambs are babies). Allowing chicken and fish, until they can make their own informed decision, was my compromise. If it were purely up to me, I'd be happy raising them vege!

So, am I being unreasonable?

You're right @Scrowy they don't stay in the same field all the time. My mistake. Some animals do of course or if not the same field, one very similar.

With regards the shit on their backends, you said yourself that one breed is particularly susceptible to this. Perhaps it would be best to not breed these sheep? Isn't that what mother nature does? And of course animals get worms but most can live with a modest amount of worms with no obvious side effects. Shit all over their backside is an obvious side effect (I was told by the farmer that it was the too rich grass that was causing it but maybe he was wrong). And I saw many many sheep with shit all over their backsides. Maybe the farmer sorted the out when he had time but they still had to live like that for some time at least which I don't believe is fair on them.
And yes, some would get footrot but of course I am not talking about the kind of sheep that people farm but ones where mother nature had helped them be the best example of what they are. The footrot I saw was likely caused by living in too low and too wet fields. They didn't stay there forever but they should never have been in those fields because it was an unsuitable environment for them and one that caused them harm.
As I've said, I'd like to live in a world where animals were free from human interference. I've also said I'm a hypocrite (feed my dog meat and used to eat meat myself, it was after I ate foie gras without knowing that I finally said no more). I also consider myself part of the problem rather than the solution as I consider all human beings. I imagine we are very different people so are likely never to agree but perhaps we can agree on that.

@watchkeys No, I was meaning you with the crazy comment. I think my comment about returning land to other species could be seen as crazy although I don't think it is and I in fact think it's our duty to do so.
As for shitting and weeing where they live and eat and sleep, you're right, animals do seem less repulsed than we are but they get to move on. Animals in fields don't or don't at a time of their choosing at least.

Some thoughts:

If you think it’s morally wrong to eat animals, there’s no reason at all to make your children eat them. Children can make their own choice when they’re old enough. I don’t see the he difference between deciding for them that that should be vegetarian, and deciding for them that that should eat meat. Either way, it’s a choice imposed on them and most parents prefer to bring up their children to share their moral values.

It’s no more arbitrary to decide that they should only eat poultry and fish than it is to decide they should only eat poultry, fish, cows, pigs and sheep - but then feel horrified at people eating cats, dogs or horses.

wasn't not was

But ad campaigns aren’t always backed by the best peer reviewed scientific research (especially if they are paid for by say, the meat and dairy lobby) and things change. The British Dietetic Association confirms well-planned vegan diets can support healthy living in people of all ages.

Case in point re ads.

Because being better for the planet isn't just about soil quality. We know that the more animals there are on the planet the more greenhouse gases they produce, the more land has to be acquired to have them there (deforestation) and then everything that happens during the production process of their food. Plus using up lots and lots of water and in some instances faecal matter polluting water sources.

@jessnoah

Yes, but what about the soil quality? It might not be the whole argument, but it is a strong point. If we all go vegan, the soil will just die after a few seasons, won't it? Greenhouse gases or not, if we can't grow food in our soil, we're in a bit of a mess.

As I said upthread, I'm not trying to prove any point, here. I'm trying to say that there's arguments for and against al of the points. Nobody can win this argument, because there are simply too many of us to feed, and whatever we do, if we do it well, will deplete something vital.

@Watchkeys after doing some reading the majority of crops are grown using plat-based synthetic fertiliser and not manure, there's nowhere near enough manure to cover how much is grown. Apparently farmers often prefer this because they can get the product with the right ratio of ingredients needed for specific crops and soil to make them grow better, whereas manure is heavy and doesn't do the job as well. That's just what I've got from reading for a few minutes though.

Yes, @jessnoah but that's about optimising the soil for agriculture, maximising crops for profit. That's a different thing from growing healthy meat/grains for us to eat.

It's a mess. What farmers prefer to grow crops with isn't good for us. It's synthetic. It's not natural. It makes the soil produce more than it can naturally produce. Manure is heavy but if it lands in the right place and can be left for a year or two, great food will grow there. But that's not a viable option any more, because more profits 'need' to be made, and faster.

Can't we use our own 'manure'. We don't seem to know what to do with that. I realise it would need to be treated if it was going to be used in food production.
I'm only half joking.

I don't think you can use manure from anything but herbivores to grow herbivore food, unless it's very well rotted down. A composting loo produces useable stuff after a couple of years untouched. It's a shame nobody seems to be looking into this. Although I can understand why they might not want to/why it might not be popular!

@Watchkeys but don't you understand that only so much needs to be produced because it's all being fed to animals so we can eat meat? If every human just ate the crops and meat in very, very small quantities we wouldn't need such huge scale amounts of crops. At the end of the day all the meat you're eating has been pumped full of antibiotics - even the organic farmed ones. It's all unnatural isn't it? The whole process. We can't kid ourselves that we're just cavemen living off the land.

Perhaps a reason for the whole population to go vegan 😉

@Watchkeys sorry after re reading I can see you're not just saying arable is unnatural, so we're kind of agreeing!

It's just all a bit of a mess. What's good in one way is bad in another.

It’s not a mess for me, it’s incredibly straight forward for ethical, environmental and health reasons people should stop or at least drastically cut down down their flesh consumption. Apart from the barbarism you can give your poor digestion and body a break. You will feel instantly lighter, fresher and leaner.

Synthetic fertilisers are used to grow the crops. Manure is still put on the fields after the crops have been taken to feed the soil.

@GCalltheway

Glad you've got things sorted out for yourself.

For me, if I drop the grains and veg and just eat meat for a few days, things start to happen like improved digestion, clearer skin, less allergy response etc. I do better running, and, if I keep it up, build muscle better on a meat heavy diet.

I think we might have to accept that what's right for one of us doesn't make it universally right for everybody.

But do you have a right to do that, @Watchkeys
I guess that's the ethical question.
And if you do, do you think people who can afford only factory farmed meat also have a right to do so.
Also your diet doesn't make sense to me, I am not doubting you but it doesn't make sense. Could it be that you need to adjust something in your veg and grains diet? Is it the amount of food you are eating? Meat is very satisfying where as grains and veg not so much.
Genuine questions and interested in your answers whatever they may be.

I don’t actually believe a word of this! But good try.

With regard to my diet, I tried lots of things, including veganism and vegetarianism. Lots of meat and a small amount of veg and grains suits me. We are all different.

With regard to rights, we could debate philosophically forever. As I've said, there are strong arguments on both sides. It's up to each of us to make our own choices.

@GCalltheway

What do you mean 'Nice try'? Did you think I was trying to convince you of something? I wasn't. You think what you want. It doesn't matter.

I'm another veggie that thinks you're unreasonable for allowing some but not all

https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-50986683.amp

It may not be every worker but killing all day must take its toll on a lot of people.

What do the pigs eat? Presumably something grown on a field.

@kikisparks

They rotate, as far as I know, with crops grown on site.