Not to want our children to eat red meat?

[Flymeaway4]

I'm vegetarian, have been for 20 years, partner is not. Since before they were born, I've said I'll let them have chicken, fish etc, but not red meat including pork. Once they're old enough to properly understand that meat was once an animal, then they can decide for themselves whether they want to eat red meat too, or be vege if they like, their choice. Partner thinks I'm ridiculous and said "why can't she have a ham sandwich" at a party yesterday, "what harm will it do". There were plenty of other options there anyway: chicken, cheese and egg sandwiches, quiche, fruit etc.

In case you think it's relevant, my reasoning behind no red meat is that I think cows and pigs are too intelligent, they know exactly what is happening when they arrive at the abattoir and I think that's just too cruel (and lambs are babies). Allowing chicken and fish, until they can make their own informed decision, was my compromise. If it were purely up to me, I'd be happy raising them vege!

So, am I being unreasonable?

I haven't got any answers. I don't know what would happen to the soil. All I know is there has to be a better way of doing it than the way we are doing it now.

You're right, I don't know about your mum's friend's farm so that wasn't fair. I was using the example to make a more general point about animals being stuck in fields. People think that's a good and natural life for them because at least they are not in a factory like the poor chickens. But it is not. Same for horses. I feel very sorry for them when I see them stuck in a field with nothing to do. Compare them with wild horses living a free life. Often tough for sure but, to my mind, so much more fulfilling.

I think the less people have to do with other animals, the better. That includes pets, farm animals, the lot. I would like to think that one day we will become more enlightened and realise that we have stolen land from other species, like we did from other people in the new world, and return it to them. Won't happen in my lifetime but maybe one day.

Yabu.

1. To think that a chicken suffers if you eat it but not your child.

1. To allow some meat but not others.

If YOU are vegetarian because YOU believe a chicken is sentient and want to raise your hind vegetarian, go ahead.

Compromising on species is ridiculous and you may as well allow a ham sandwich if you would allow chicken.

If anything, at least a pig would feed more children/meals and less lives lost.

Your sentience argument is pointless and our rationale shouldn't soothe your guilt.

Sheep don't need to be provided with enrichment activities by human beings, that's the whole point. They need to be able to make their own decisions but have the space and freedom to do that. They would then be much healthier and wouldn't have worms, shitty bums, foot rot etc.

I agree with you - I can’t believe how much pain and suffering we inflict on absolutely everything around us. It’s a total abuse of power.

You're right but people don't want to see it as it is so they fight hard against it. They'll be calling us crazy in a minute 😁

Don't think it's fair to decide on your child's food preference, even if you were both vegetarian, although I know there are practicalities around that.

It's very hypocritical to decide they can have meat, but only certain types of meat that you (not your husband) have decided.

@redboxer321

Far from calling you crazy (in case you meant me), I'm far more inclined to think that now there are so many people, there isn't a right answer. There are strong arguments each way, and it depends on how you decide to place your emphases. For me, it's important that I look after myself, and I think that self care is everyone's responsibility. So, I try to do as much as I can as I've evolved to do. It's also important to me to try to do it in a way that does as little harm as possible to others. But everything we do harms others, and we all have our choices to make.

It's not an 'I'm right and you're wrong' thing. It's 'I'm right in some ways and wrong in others, as are you.'

Overpopulation and overconsumption have a lot to answer for. It's hard to know what to do, and even when you think you've worked out what's best, it's hard to do it, and hard to understand all the implications.

Nobody can decide on someone else's preference.

Who do you think should decide what a child eats?

Crazy to actually care about living things. I had to eat meat as a child, stopped at 15 and it was hideous! Actual legs of animals. The fat, tissue, skin with hair still visible on some chickens. Livers. It’s absolutely f**king rank. I have no idea how people do it! Even putting the ethical reasons aside, it’s pure conditioning to find it a acceptable and yet they can’t see it.

The worst are the songbirds they fry whole in Paris and eat in one mouthful - every part of the poor bird. Beyond barbaric. I walked out.

You are showing your complete ignorance about farming again.

Do you really think a sheep stays in the same field it's entire life?

At this time of year I have around 950 breeding sheep plus their followers - let's say 1.5 lambs each if you average it out (it's slightly more than that but just for ease) so approx 1425 lambs.

Around 500 of those breeding sheep go out onto the fell to roam freely over 1000s of acres for most of the year, with their lambs at this time of year. They get brought into the fields at lambing time so we can keep a closer eye on them. They are gathered off the fell several times a year and brought into the sheep pens for a day each time for shearing, dosing, vaccinations, foot treatments etc.

The other 450 get rotated through about 250 acres of land throughout the year, they graze and fertilise one field fully and then we move them on to the next. Some of those fields are also used to grow hay and silage for winter, some are only used for grazing cows and sheep because they are so rocky they can't be used for anything else.

The female lambs are either kept by us if they are Swaledales to become our next generation, or sold to other farmers for breeding in the big autumn sheep sales if they are Mule breed lambs.

The tups all go for meat when they hit about 35kg whatever breed are.

Sheep would get worms and bad feet and shitty bums if they were wild too. The difference is they would die from it rather than being treated.

Why do totally clueless people talk absolute nonsense?

99% of people could not kill the animal’s they eat. Who could seriously do that on a daily basis

Many people in the West who are brought up shielded from it, definitely true. In many other regions of the world, slaughtering your own food is standard.
Also don't forget that in many parts of Europe and the US people spend all winter hunting.

@Flymeaway4

What is your take on fish and other water dwelling food creatures. Apparently octopi are more intelligent than pigs, can solve complex three stage problems, can recognise individual human beings and respond to them consistently according to previous encounters , have more complicated eyes and other sensory organs than we do and can do amazing things like change their skin colour to match their surroundings. Smart eh?

they graze and fertilise one field fully and then we move them on to the next

It's interesting to read about your sheep, @Scrowy

I wonder about this with vegan food. How does the land get fertilised after the crops have been harvested? Doesn't it just get stripped of nutrients, and then have to be fertilized artificially? And if it's done artificially, by what method?

@redboxer321 Animals don't see shit with as much distain as we do. My dog eats it. The horses in the field down the road eat the grass that's right by their shit. Animals aren't looking at it like Hyacinth Bucket, wondering when on earth someone is going to sort it out. Don't animals in the wild eat and grow and shit in the same place until they've eaten all they can, and then move on?

Oh for heaven sake! Europeans rarely eat the stuff they shoot! It’s full of lead for one !!
I live in the country and see the piles of pheasants left over from shoot weekends it’s absolutely disgusting to see such utter waste.

As I have said other cultured may have no choice but that can not be said for anyone living here. The hunting and shooting for kicks is monstrous.

Oh for heaven sake! Europeans rarely eat the stuff they shoot! It’s full of lead for one !!

Don't they? How wasteful. Where I grew up there's a winter hunting season and everything is eaten, and gratefully received as gifts.

Surely it's just animals shot with shotgun rounds that will be full of lead, not hunting rifles?

And people who home slaughter are doing it specifically to eat the results.

Certainly people don’t eat lead here, no, due to the obvious risks and danger of doing so.

why don’t you know what you shoot your animals with??

why don’t you know what you shoot your animals with??

I haven't hunted for years. I did so under adult supervision.

@GCalltheway

Your argument was 'Who could kill and eat animals on a daily basis' and the counter argument is 'Many do.'

And many do. Piles of pheasants/ethics of British hunting isn't the issue. Your point has been refuted.

It’s rather odd that you don’t know 🤷🏼‍♀️

It’s rather odd that you don’t know

Why? It didn't occur to me to ask. My own parents didn't hunt, I took part with friends.
I live in the UK now and it's not something that's come up for me as an adult.

Ah but they don’t my friend, tens of millions just go to x,y and z and buy up cheap piles of carcass without a seconds thought only looking at the price.

@jessnoah

I assume that's much better for the planet than animal farming

Why? I don't know the answer, I'm genuinely asking. My assumption would be the other way: animals fertilise as they go, so surely that leaves the land better nourished?

You can eat lead, nothing stopping you - most bullets are made with lead but it’s not advisable especially if you are pregnant.

The pheasants here are usually burnt, thrown away or given to dogs to chew on. I can’t say it’s something I see as an ethical hobby.

The pheasants here are usually burnt, thrown away or given to dogs to chew on. I can’t say it’s something I see as an ethical hobby

If the animals are being killed for sport and not eaten then I absolutely agree with you it isn't ethical.
What I'm talking about is the hunting of buck that absolutely get eaten, either fresh or preserved through a drying process. I have always considered this a far more ethical way of meat consumption than intensively reared chickens or pigs.