Not to want our children to eat red meat?

[Flymeaway4]

I'm vegetarian, have been for 20 years, partner is not. Since before they were born, I've said I'll let them have chicken, fish etc, but not red meat including pork. Once they're old enough to properly understand that meat was once an animal, then they can decide for themselves whether they want to eat red meat too, or be vege if they like, their choice. Partner thinks I'm ridiculous and said "why can't she have a ham sandwich" at a party yesterday, "what harm will it do". There were plenty of other options there anyway: chicken, cheese and egg sandwiches, quiche, fruit etc.

In case you think it's relevant, my reasoning behind no red meat is that I think cows and pigs are too intelligent, they know exactly what is happening when they arrive at the abattoir and I think that's just too cruel (and lambs are babies). Allowing chicken and fish, until they can make their own informed decision, was my compromise. If it were purely up to me, I'd be happy raising them vege!

So, am I being unreasonable?

Oh dear..

you really don't know much about sheep or farming do you.

I'm laughing at the idea that farmers are making their sheep lamb too early in the year so the lambs are ready in time for the easter market.

Do people really think the lamb they eat at Easter is the same as young ones in the fields at the same time!?

Easter lamb is either the lambs born the year before, or imported from New Zealand.

some farmers lamb indoors 'early' from December to February usually because they want to have a selection ready that are big enough for showing in the summer agricultural shows. You may see their lambs outside for parts of the day until it gets warmer.

some sheep breeds are particularly prone to having shitty bums (suffolks in particular) but it's usually an indication of a high worm burden rather than anything to do with what the farmer is feeding them. Farmers will usually dose the sheep for worms, and clip the poo 'dags' off if needed - it's all a standard part of sheep farming.

sheep get kessened for all kinds of reasons, slipping on a cow pat isn't one I've personally witnessed though. You just upright them again.

foot issues can present for all kinds of reasons. Some of our sheep got COD which is a highly infectious foot disease, once it gets into a flock it can be hard to eradicate.

Sheep are designed to stand in fields, it would have to be a quagmire before the ground conditions became the primary cause of bad feet.

You have weird double standards with your distinction between red meat animals and chicken / fish. Either you are a vegetarian for ethical reasons or you are not.

I get your logic. If someone handed me a knife and kill a chicken or a pig or a cow I'd kill the chicken, no questions. I would however overlook a ham sandwich at a party simply because half that food gets chucked away anyway!

Veganism means avoiding animal exploitation as far as possible and practicable (the definition set out by the group who coined the word vegan in the 1940s). Research shows that hundreds or thousands of rodents don’t seem to be killed by harvesters. There is evidence that post harvest the mouse population is much depleted but when 32 mice were fitted with radio collars they found that only one died during the harvest, the others were killed by predation (an unfortunate but necessary part of the eco system). If you eat beef you can be certain that humans exploited and killed the cow/ bull.

How do you know the sheep haven't been treated?

we've spent thousands in the last 12 months trying to sort out foot problems in our sheep, we've about got it under control, but it didn't happen overnight and only through expensive treatment, regular vet visits and culling some of the ones that are constantly reinfecting everything else.

Every now and again despite that we still get a sheep with a bad foot. It happens, it's part of keeping livestock. It IS just like humans, some sheep will go all of their lives with just routine vaccinations, others will need regular treatment and are a problem.

how have you any idea if the sheep you saw limping one day is still the same sheep that's limping a week or so later? How do you know if it's foot rot or if it got a stone stuck in its hoof? I bet the farmer will be able to tell you if you asked them.

sheep farmers are very very skilled at knowing when a sheep needs help. A dull look in their eyes, perhaps not quite as quick to food, an ear not quite upright, all sorts of tiny little signs that farmers have been taught to look for by their parents and grandparents since they were young.

I think it's a bit rude of you frankly to suggest otherwise when it's clearly a subject you know nothing of beyond google and walking your dog past sheep. You even acknowledge that the farmer was present and amongst the sheep.

It may or may not be a regular occurrence but I saw a cow pat with a slide in it. I saw cow shit on the sheep's back. There is no way on god's green earth I could have helped that sheep up. I was lying on very uneven ground, on a slope, in between trees, it was stuck. And anyhow, I had my dog with me and she was barking at it. I thought the best thing we could do was to move away and get help which is what I did. The farmer, who was further up the field on his quad bike, came over to the sheep and lifted it by it's front legs and kind of stood it up so at one point it was in a more vertical position. Once on all fours he stood there holding it for some minutes as it was very wobbly. I presume he knew what he was doing. Nothing about rolling it over at all. He had been rounding up his sheep and said he would have missed this one. I watched from a distance so that my dog didn't bark and so I could potentially help another sheep in a similar predicament. This sheep was stuck because it had an accident like many animals do. This wasn't poor welfare.
As for your point comparing human treatment for foot problems with that given to a sheep, are you for real? The sheep can't go to the farmer and say excuse me farmer, I'd rather not be chased by the sheep dog today because I'm in a lot of pain with my foot. And I need to get off this water logged land sharpish. A sheep has no agency. Many are bred ultimately for meat and as long as it fetches its price at market, no one gives a damn. The farmer can see the sheep is lame and will treat it. Lame sheep are not sellable at market. If you think the sheep are being neglected then you should report the farmer.
It's only partly the farmer's fault. It's also the fault of supermarkets who drive down the price of lamb because consumers demand cheap meat meaning the welfare of sheep suffer. This is so confused. Lame and poorly treated sheep are not taken to market because no one wants to buy them.

@Scrowy
I don't know much about sheep farming, no.
I just know what I witnessed - sheep in visible pain and distress.
I also know that life for farmers must be pretty tough and even the very best of them would find it difficult to cater for their animal's needs.
Take the example of the foot disease, you say they can get problems with their feet for a number of reasons and it's hard to eradicate. I believe you. But to my mind that means that people should not be farming sheep, not in the way they do now at least.
Now it's going to be a bit of a problem for me, and I am indeed a hypocrite, because my dog eats lamb but I'm happy to cross that bridge if we come to it.

Take another example: worms. My dog doesn't have worms. She doesn't get them because I have the time and the money to take care of her properly. Sheep are not there to be taken care of. They are there to make the farmer money. Very little money I'd imagine for a shit load of work but the point still stands.

What you are talking about is managing their issues and while I don't doubt you do it, some farmers do not. I'm saying, let's not farm animals in this way so they don't have to live with shitty bums, worms, foot rot etc.

Also I bet the people who just think it's hypocrisy all eat meat themselves, they see a 'flawed argument' as one way having to be right and the other wrong and if not you're a hypocrite. Your own life, your family's lives and wants and needs, the ability to keep control and feelings on the matter all come into this. For instance you might LOVE chicken or chicken might be more affordable, or it might be the only thing your whole family agree on. It's not just about whether you do or don't agree with eating animals. You do you! But I'd overlook your husband's decisions if you're not totally fixed in your opinions.

Also being restrictive will help cut back how much meat you're eating. People who are all or nothing will inevitably just end up binging on meat every day

I didn't say anything about individual meals and I don't know what argument you don't understand.
It's not only about their death but their life is my point. But I agree that it's a lot more complicated than I don't eat steak so I'm not doing any damage but I have said that previously.
And another poster has posted about the death of rodents while harvesting grain. I found read too that it is figures have been inflated massively.

99% of people could not kill the animal’s they eat. Who could seriously do that on a daily basis.

@redboxer321

I don't know what argument you don't understand

I don't understand the argument that veganism is better for animals than pasture fed meat. Can you explain the argument to me, please?

@derxa
They may treat them so they can sell them but not until they need to. It's expensive and difficult as @Scrowy agrees. Obviously not all farmers are the same and I have empathy for farmers as already explained but they are working in a system that demands cheap meat and in order to survive economically, they in some cases have to sacrifice animal welfare.

@Scrowy
I have no desire to be rude but neither do I want to live in fantasy land.
Yes the farmer was in the field but he had missed the sheep. I know that because he told me.

This is how the human race evolved for millions of years, so many, many people 'seriously did that' for all that time. Most vegans don't produce their own food either. Modern food production puts almost all of us out of the equation, and distances us from understanding our food.

You do realise cows also eat grain? Pigs eat grain, chickens eat grain. So humans eating grain just cuts out more production deaths. Also, the alternative is for vegans to just die, and that would be a ridiculous expectation to have of them.

And all the people who say 'I eat from my friend's private stash of animals on her private family farm'. Do you actually think the whole world can do that? There's not enough land on the planet for everyone to eat guilt free free range animals, it's a privilege.

Vegans don’t need to murder innocent animals to survive. The old chestnut that humans killed millions of years ago really doesn’t stack up in 2023!

YANBU I cringe massively when mine eat red meat - at the mi DH keeps feeding baby DD BBQ sausages. Bowel cancer/nitrates/general carcinogen… but also I know I have issues and haven’t done the equivalent research for chicken and fish. I will do!

Your working premise is that farmers don't mind seeing animals suffering which I can assure you is not the case. We don't let our sheep carry on being lame.
You're attacking sheep farming because you're trying to discredit a high welfare way of producing meat.

But vegan food production involves a lot of murder, and doesn't feed the land. Even if you eat solely from your own allotment, you'll have to kill caterpillars and snails or you'll lose your crops. Caterpillars are just as valuable as cows, aren't they? Or do you denominate value to each life differently?

The agricultural revolution wasn't 'millions of years' ago. In terms of our evolution, and what we've evolved to eat, it was very, very recent. Whether that 'stacks up' for you personally isn't really the issue.

What @jessnoah said.
There's not enough land for animals to be pasture fed and to meet the world's demand for meat.
And if the whole world went vegan, then the land that is used to grow grain for many of the animals that people eat, there would be much more land available that could become a home wildlife. My food is not cruelty free, I am aware of that.
What I would like to see is a change in the way all food is produced but for that to happen there needs to be a massive decrease in the number of people on this planet.

I wouldn't be so sure that your mum's friend's animals get such a great life either. Animals, at least their more natural counterparts, are capable of living such rich lives if only given a chance to do so. Being stuck in a field, eating and growing and shitting in that same field until it's time to be despatched isn't much of a life. Then there's the breeding aspect, often pretty gruesome. Then they're taken to market, often in a trailer which is very stressful for them. I heard a bunch of cows mooing from the trailer in which they were being transported, it was haunting.

Some farmers don't mind seeing animals suffer. Some have become hardened to it. Some feel they have no choice. Some I am sure do their absolute best for their animals but often fail to meet high welfare standards 100% of the time.
Please point out to me where I have attacked sheep farming.

@redboxer321

Thanks for your answer. I agree that there needs to be a wholesale change in food production.

What would happen to the land if we all went vegan? Isn't it the case that vegan food production doesn't give anything back to the land, so soil degradation and erosion would become an issue?

I think that you are making assumptions about the animals at my friend's Mum's place. That's really not fair, to assume your argument onto a situation you've never been in.

Ichundich, it's not double standards, it's different standards, it seems logical to me to not want to eat mammals, people see things differently which sometimes you have to accept

Vegan food production can mean a few things. If you mean soya, I think soya isn't very planet friendly but I think it's something like 99% is produced for animal feed so people can eat meat, so if people all went vegan it would be vastly reduced. Then arable farming is just arable farming. I assume that's much better for the planet than animal farming.

"Animals, at least their more natural counterparts, are capable of living such rich lives if only given a chance to do so. Being stuck in a field, eating and growing and shitting in that same field until it's time to be despatched isn't much of a life."
What sort of enrichment activities do you think would be appropriate for a sheep?