Not to want our children to eat red meat?

[Flymeaway4]

I'm vegetarian, have been for 20 years, partner is not. Since before they were born, I've said I'll let them have chicken, fish etc, but not red meat including pork. Once they're old enough to properly understand that meat was once an animal, then they can decide for themselves whether they want to eat red meat too, or be vege if they like, their choice. Partner thinks I'm ridiculous and said "why can't she have a ham sandwich" at a party yesterday, "what harm will it do". There were plenty of other options there anyway: chicken, cheese and egg sandwiches, quiche, fruit etc.

In case you think it's relevant, my reasoning behind no red meat is that I think cows and pigs are too intelligent, they know exactly what is happening when they arrive at the abattoir and I think that's just too cruel (and lambs are babies). Allowing chicken and fish, until they can make their own informed decision, was my compromise. If it were purely up to me, I'd be happy raising them vege!

So, am I being unreasonable?

What do you mean by "our times"? How long do you think people have been eating animals? What about animals eating other animals - is that okay? For what it's worth I don't look back at medieval times with horror. I suspect some of you never set foot outside of a city and have no real idea of agricultural life.

I don't understand your logic either. If your DH is happy for them to eat meat , and you are happy for them to eat some meat then you are being silly about which meats are acceptable.

I completely disagree, why are personal life choices 'silly', simply because they do not resonate with you

Evidence for the statement that humans need meat to be healthy?

Evidence for the statement that humans need meat to be healthy? There are at least 336 million vegetarians in India, are they all unhealthy? I myself haven’t eaten it in 33 years and my blood results have shown there do not appear to be any adverse effects. Iron and vitamin levels are good.

I don't understand the OP's logic either. But I firmly believe if one parent is a committed vegetarian, particularly if they do the bulk of the cooking, then it should be a vegetarian house. The meat eater can eat whatever he likes outside the house. Simple.

I'm a vegan because I can't eat the flesh an another animal knowing how much they have suffered to produce that meat for me.
I am not deluded enough to think that I don't have an affect on other animals on this planet. I try to kill mosquitos if I catch them biting me. I gave my dog a worming tablet so as the kill the worms in her gut. I hit a bird with my car once. Much more than that I am part of a species that is destroying this world by their lifestyle and complete disregard for other animals on this planet. And yes, I eat grain which has been harvested in a way that kills mice. I wish that wasn't the case but I've got to eat. What I haven't got to do is eat a cow that has been fed grain leading to mice being killed but also the cow itself. I am trying to limit the pain I cause to other animals and I think that most vegans are the same.

As for the hostile comments on this thread, it is not only about stating the facts. One comment that stands out is calling somebody "wise" and "you've made me look at myself (or words to that effect)".
And I am not entirely sure what you are trying to achieve by labouring the point about vegan food isn't truly vegan either. What do you think it achieves? Maybe people feel better about eating meat if they say this. I don't know.

I live rurally and witness first hand what happens to these poor creatures. Eating animal carcasses has a major impact.

Too many people protect their selfish and inhumane choices by remaining entirely ignorant of the grotesque reality of what actuality happens to animals as they are killed, and the severe mental health issues of those tasked to kill day in and day out in abattoirs so they am continue to eat decomposing, rotting flesh and somehow try and convince themselves it is superior!

I know the entire process. There is nothing you could tell me that I don't know.

I'm going to carry on eating meat.

Have you e v en read you own link.They recommend up to one serving a day or 2 servings 3or 4 times a week

I don't understand what your point is? Animals get killed by pollution, pesticides, the trucks that deliver our food from the supermarket, it doesn't mean people aren't free to make choices to reduce the amount of meat or dairy they eat. And vegan just means you don't eat animals or animal products.

Do you think the only two choices are to eat organically home grown vegetables from your own allotment or eat meat with every single meal?

And anyway, what do you think the animals themselves eat? The grain that is harvested 🙄.

Just to add, there is a world of difference between deliberately breeding animals for meat and accidently killing some animals in the harvesting of grain.
Up until what must be a pretty awful death, the mice have had a reasonably natural life. They are natural animals. They haven't been bred and raised for meat, so unlike the sheep I used to see when I lived rurally, they don't spend much of their life with their back ends covered in shit because they are getting too rich a diet to make them grow faster. A good number of them had foot problems because they were kept on ground that was too wet. They limped really badly and when the wolf (sheep dog) came to chase them round the field, the healthy ones would try to protect them in the huddle. I'd see the newborn lambs shivering the field having spent a night outside with only a tree or two for shelter. They'd be born too early in the year so as to meet the easter market. And one day I came across a sheep lying on its back in the field. It had slipped in a cow pat and couldn't get up. My dog was barking at it and the fear

FFS I keep getting the 500 error message so posts are not getting posted properly!

Such ill informed nonsense

In what way is it nonsense, @derxa
Because what I have written they is a collection of facts and stuff that I have seen with my own eyes.

The rest of my post (if it will upload!) was:
I have no desire to tell people what to eat but it does rather stick in the throat when vegans are being told that the food they eat kills animals when there are any number of bullshit posts have gone unchallenged on this thread.

As for the post by @Lefteyetwitch I find that terribly sad and I think it says it all about the current state of the human race. Most people that eat meat have allowed themselves to be deluded about the process. But if you really understand it and you're still sticking the V's to other living creatures - as well as ignoring the environmental impact of eating meat - then that says a lot about you.

Oh, and for anyone who was worried about the sheep on its back, I was able to get it help but the fear I saw in that animal's eyes as it lay there completely helpless is something that will never leave me.

Is this ill-informed nonsense, @derxa ?
Footrot in Sheep: Causes, Symptoms, Prevention, and Treatment (morningchores.com)

And? Sheep with foot problems are treated for them. Humans with foot problems are treated for them.
Oh, and for anyone who was worried about the sheep on its back, I was able to get it help but the fear I saw in that animal's eyes as it lay there completely helpless is something that will never leave me.
You should have just pushed the sheep over back on its feet. Sometimes pregnant ewes do this. They don't 'slip on cow pats' It's not a regular occurrence.

I live in an agricultural country and over the years have known many people who worked in the local meat processing plants. I've yet to meet anyone who has severe mental health issues because of it.

Too many people protect their selfish and inhumane choices by remaining entirely ignorant of the grotesque reality of what actuality happens to animals as they are killed

I grew up in a culture of home slaughtering and I am still happy to eat meat.

And you call me ill-informed, @derxa !
I saw many many sheep that clearly had very bad problems with their feet and were limping heavily and many of those were never treated. Why? Taken from the article:
"Footrot is a disease that not only can be extremely painful for sheep but also costly and difficult to deal with for sheep farmers."
It's only partly the farmer's fault. It's also the fault of supermarkets who drive down the price of lamb because consumers demand cheap meat meaning the welfare of sheep suffer.

It may or may not be a regular occurrence but I saw a cow pat with a slide in it. I saw cow shit on the sheep's back. There is no way on god's green earth I could have helped that sheep up. I was lying on very uneven ground, on a slope, in between trees, it was stuck. And anyhow, I had my dog with me and she was barking at it. I thought the best thing we could do was to move away and get help which is what I did. The farmer, who was further up the field on his quad bike, came over to the sheep and lifted it by it's front legs and kind of stood it up so at one point it was in a more vertical position. Once on all fours he stood there holding it for some minutes as it was very wobbly. I presume he knew what he was doing. Nothing about rolling it over at all. He had been rounding up his sheep and said he would have missed this one. I watched from a distance so that my dog didn't bark and so I could potentially help another sheep in a similar predicament.

As for your point comparing human treatment for foot problems with that given to a sheep, are you for real? The sheep can't go to the farmer and say excuse me farmer, I'd rather not be chased by the sheep dog today because I'm in a lot of pain with my foot. And I need to get off this water logged land sharpish. A sheep has no agency. Many are bred ultimately for meat and as long as it fetches its price at market, no one gives a damn.

Well bloody good for you. I couldn’t care less what you put in your body or your moral and ethical deficit. What would you like a gold star?

Yes. But well done you for missing the entire point of the convo. Is the lack of meat effecting your processing?

The conversation was if people knew the 'horrors' they wouldn't eat meat.

But that's BS. Because many of us do. And we still eat it.

@redboxer321

My point was this, and it's actually a question for you:

When I sit down to eat my grass-fed steak, I only know about one animal that was killed in the process of producing it. I don't know about how many others also died. When you sit down to your vegan meal, there is nothing dead on your plate, but do you know how many souls did die, or is it enough for you that, although there may have been more than it took to produce my meal, you don't have anything dead on your plate?

I don't really understand your argument, to be honest. I didn't think that veganism was about an individual's meal. I thought it was about minimising deaths and cruelty. I don't agree with mass meat production myself, and am not arguing in its favour. But my friend's mum raises sheep and pigs in her fields and has them slaughtered locally. I eat that meat. I can't see how vegan food production kills less creatures than that, regardless of what's on anyone's plate.

Sounds like you've got yourself into an ego battle, @GCalltheway . Telling people to have a good look at themselves, talking about people getting 'gold stars' when they disagree with you, and their moral and ethical deficit.

Are you trying to 'win'?

What's your thoughts on the post I just made to redboxer? Can you tell us without putting anybody down? I'm genuinely interested in what vegans think about this point, and open to being convinced by a strong argument.