To say no to social services re: my niece and nephews...

[mrsneate]

To cut a long story short, this is the fourth time in 9 years social services are involved with my brother and his children.

The first time. I drove 200 miles with no notice to collect Brother and his three kids. They lived with me for 8 months. It was hell. Small 3 bed house, 3 children of my own and my ex husband (we were still married) I supported them all financially, got them into schools, he was then given a council property, the children were taken off the register (on it because of their mum)

Fast forward 3 years, a neighbour reported him for various things. They were put back on the register, my brother worked with them, I supported him.

18 months ago, 2am police knock on my door with my eldest nephew. (16 at this point!) him and dad had gotten into a physical fight, could I take him, of course I said yes, the next day social worker came round, when police had entered their property. It was t fit to live in. Stinking dirty, rubbish everywhere.

Me and my SIL (other brothers wife) went round, and blitzed his house, I did 20 loads of washing, 16 dishwasher cycles. The house was spotless.

They asked me to take all 3. I couldn't, I work full time night shifts and was a single parent, my nephew was with me for 10 weeks with no support from
Social services or my brother financial or otherwise, then my nephew was 17 and could decide he wanted to go home. He went home. Case was closed

This week, I randomly had a phone call from a social worker. There had been an anonymous report from someone that he was leaving the youngest alone for long periods (she's 11) and there was no food in the house. He's drinking all the time, the house is a state.

I only ever see my brother these days when he pops to my house with my niece. She always looks clean.

They told me it's looking like it's going down the route of removing the children (11 and 16?) and would I be in a position to take them in, until he decides to cooperate and work with them, told them no, although I'm no longer single, my fiancé works away for months at a time and I still work night shifts, and still only live in a 3 bed house with 2 of my boys (oldest has moved out) she got really arrogant with me after that. I pointed out they need to stop closing the case, keep them on the register.

But guilt is eating me up, there has been a suggestion they go back to their mother. But that will be a disaster. I have text my brother and offered to help him clean the house. Again, but I am
Pissed off with him, and it's annoying me that he keeps having passes because he's a male single parent! He works school hours and earns good money, he's not skint.

What would you do?

Indeed. There would probably be a lot of resentment towards their cousins, and that's just scratching the surface.

But why are you so sure that the best option for protecting your siblings children would be to ‘make do’ in a situation where nobody got enough time, attention, or potentially even food and shelter, rather than go to a foster family? I mean sure, in your situation, where both families are clearly stable and loving that might be the better option. But in OP’s situation, I’m not sure making 4 children share two bedrooms, one of them a box room, and for the OP to have to give up work, thereby potentially not being able to afford food, or the mortgage to fund the roof over their heads, is a better option that those children going to a professional foster situation with the time and expertise to properly support them.

You keep falling back on the statement ‘the OP asked me what I would do’, but really, we all know full well the question was ‘what would I do in her situation’, and are you really saying you’d risk making 4 children homeless - at worst - and at best making two children’s lives markedly worse to, possibly, but maybe not, improve the lives of two others, just to avoid the 2 children having to live with people who aren’t family? Because, personally, I don’t think that’s in anyone’s best interests.

Report this person. That is unprofessional and not true. They are the parents' responsibility. The social worker is just trying to find a cheep option versus paid foster care

They are. But if we think of alcoholism as an illness, if my sister was ill for a period of time, it’s a situation that I hope never comes up, but if it did, I would be there.

There is a lot of mental illness including alcoholism in my family, and family members being sectioned for times. All of the extended family has always helped with the kids involved in these scenarios, at huge personal cost. No one comes out great from these situations but I suppose there’s a view that letting the kids be taken in by strangers instead is a situation to be avoided at all costs.

i’ve been really interested to hear on this thread people who were taken into care themselves and experienced that as a positive thing. Funny how as a family people can be so focussed on avoiding one outcome (foster care) you don’t stop to think whether that could actually be a preferable outcome in the end

Ahhh thanks!

this thread has been very eye opening in many ways!

Without a second thought? That sounds irresponsible.

This kind of situation actually requires a lot of careful thought. The well-being of all the kids. The financial situation of the OP. The sleeping arrangements at home; who will the 11y girl be sharing with? What kind of supervision is available for the youngest child. What the MH issues are. The OP has given it a lot of thought. Rushing in is not the right thing to do here.

A very wise and thoughtful post, @Nasolabial.

That attitude does you credit, i think.

Those who say that would take the children - assuming you wanted the financial support of the local authority as well as your nieces/nephews to receive their own entitlements as looked after children (and if you taking the children was an alternative to them going into care, then that’s exactly what should be happening), you would need to undergo a viability assessment. There’s an example of the kind of thing this covers in the link below. It’s not a given that you would make it through such an assessment, the choice may not be yours.

https://bettercarenetwork.org/sites/default/files/VIABILITY-MASTER-COPY-WHOLE-GUIDE.pdf

Fair enough.

There are a lot of communities in the UK where people feel very strongly and viscerally that family comes first. Most people from these communities, including the one in which I was raised, would agree to take in the kids and work through the details after.

Having read through all the comments on this thread i’m not sure any more this is always the right approach (it genuinely never occurred to me that some people are actually happy to have gone into foster care. That is how deep seated suspicion of social services is in my community), but when i whatsapped family members about this thread they were all in agreement that letting family children be taken by social services was a ‘never’ scenario.

Putting “family first” can include children going into care, if that means everyone has their needs met in the best way possible.

OP's brother holds down a decent job. He goes on dates.

He also refuses to look after his children properly.

Why are SS proposing to help him by transferring the care and cost of his children to his sister - or the taxpayer?

Surely his choice should be stepping up with SS support, or being prosecuted for neglect.

Pushing the responsibility onto his sister is easier, and cheaper.

The sexism is very strong - the OPs other brother isn’t remotely being put under pressure to step in

@KingsHeath53 I think it's interesting that you were brought up in a big working class community. We were the same and there were lots of cousins brought up by aunts and uncles, etc. DH's family also have friend's DCs that lived with them.
The burden didn't just fall on the women in our families. The men also looked after the DCs. Took them out to play, taught them life skills, visited the DCs parents whilst that was still a possibility.
We didn't have an expectation of having our own rooms or parents paying towards university or any of the financial and materialistic items that it seems wealthier families take into account when deciding if they can look after DCs. We had very little but neither my DM or DF would have turned anyone away.

That is because in the minds of far too many people, male and female, when a man says no it means no. When a woman says no, you just haven't guilted her enough yet.

If you are the sort of person to do that to your own children without a second thought then you'd probably not be a good choice.

The OP's immediate family is herself and her children and her first responsibility is to them. Her nephew and niece and their father are also her family but she doesn't owe them her financial stability or her happiness.

We had very little but neither my DM or DF would have turned anyone away.

Thats not always a good thing.

I was brought up by my Grandparents after abuse and neglect by my parents. They were well meaning lovely people, but they weren’t capable of adequately housing four children. I was only just 7, by the time I was 11/12 I was safe from physical abuse, but I was basically a carer for two old people and was responsible for getting myself to school, cooking meals, and by 14 keeping on top of the bills.

My grandparents really should have thought about it more - they weren’t capable, but like your DM they just would never have said no.

I don’t think own rooms, and help when it comes to university is a terrible thing for parents to want to provide for their children, or that the affluent are somehow less worthy as people for considering this.

Quality of life, and yes, material considerations matter too. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to do more than just scrape by and ‘make do’.

Could you & other families manage to maybe help your brother put in place some longer term solutions to help him work with social services?
Eg help arrange a weekly cleaner and set up a direct debit from his account to pay them
Help arrange some weekly food deliveries of essentials, on his payment card.

Is he still drinking? Would he attend an AA meeting/engage with medical support for the alcoholism?

I hope every pp who says they would take on someone else's children like a shot and guilts those who can't or won't would put their money where their mouths are and register as foster carers. Obviously the difference in being a foster carer rather than a kinship guardian is that you get expenses paid. An important but often overlooked point.

OP - I'd ignore the non-reality posts and put your kids first. You are in position to take on your niece/nephews.

Social services need to sort out a proper plan. This is not your mess.

Stand firm.

Best wishes.💐

That should have said "no position"

I'm finding it sad the number of people saying the 11 year old will be fine with her dad if a cleaner is employed and someone pops in to feed her or make sure there is food. She is not a cat. I have a 13 year old and the idea of him fending for himself and having no support is heartbreaking.

There was a thread like this not long ago and the same thing happened - loads of people came on and said how they would take in nieces and nephews in a heartbeat. Because hypothetically that's the easy answer.

Meanwhile, in the real world, children on the brink of going into care due to neglect or trauma are often not easy to live with. Their behaviour can be very difficult and their needs can be very high. It is not as simple as just providing a bed and meals for them.

I do foster. And my foster kids have as nice a life as I can possibly give them with their own bedrooms, all sorts of tech, plenty of clothes, hobbies etc. They are safe and they are happy. So coming into the care system has not been as awful for them as some posters try and make out. They haven't been moved from placement to placement; they've been with me the whole time they've been in care, which is almost a decade now.

Other than saving money I can't think how a SW would look at your situation and think it's a good idea for you to take these kids. You don't have the space for them. In foster care an 11 year old girl would not be able to share with a 13 year old boy, even if they were siblings. So why does the SW think your niece can share with your son? It's not fair on either kid.

And when fostering, it is always advised to only do it if your own children are on board. There are many times that birth children's needs have to come second to foster children's and that's just not fair on them if they're unhappy with the situation anyway. This will massively affect your boys and they've already put up with years of cousins living with them on and off. Listen to them and say no.

Pardon me if it has been said, I have sinned, and not read the full thread. But I do sometimes wonder, from situations I've observed (in New Zealand Oranga Tamariki, the equivalent when it comes to the department concerned with the welfare of children has a similar if not even greater focus on placing children with whanau/family or iwi/tribe) I've sometimes wondered if placement of children within the family can perhaps perpetuate the issues the family as a whole has in continuing for the child? (Not meaning this directed at you, OP, by any mean!)

To all of those telling OP that you would take the kids -- she already has! It didn't work!

@Teapot13 It didn't work for her to take them temporarily and they then return to her brother.

There's no reason why this would fail in the same way, as they wouldn't be going back.