To say no to social services re: my niece and nephews...

[mrsneate]

To cut a long story short, this is the fourth time in 9 years social services are involved with my brother and his children.

The first time. I drove 200 miles with no notice to collect Brother and his three kids. They lived with me for 8 months. It was hell. Small 3 bed house, 3 children of my own and my ex husband (we were still married) I supported them all financially, got them into schools, he was then given a council property, the children were taken off the register (on it because of their mum)

Fast forward 3 years, a neighbour reported him for various things. They were put back on the register, my brother worked with them, I supported him.

18 months ago, 2am police knock on my door with my eldest nephew. (16 at this point!) him and dad had gotten into a physical fight, could I take him, of course I said yes, the next day social worker came round, when police had entered their property. It was t fit to live in. Stinking dirty, rubbish everywhere.

Me and my SIL (other brothers wife) went round, and blitzed his house, I did 20 loads of washing, 16 dishwasher cycles. The house was spotless.

They asked me to take all 3. I couldn't, I work full time night shifts and was a single parent, my nephew was with me for 10 weeks with no support from
Social services or my brother financial or otherwise, then my nephew was 17 and could decide he wanted to go home. He went home. Case was closed

This week, I randomly had a phone call from a social worker. There had been an anonymous report from someone that he was leaving the youngest alone for long periods (she's 11) and there was no food in the house. He's drinking all the time, the house is a state.

I only ever see my brother these days when he pops to my house with my niece. She always looks clean.

They told me it's looking like it's going down the route of removing the children (11 and 16?) and would I be in a position to take them in, until he decides to cooperate and work with them, told them no, although I'm no longer single, my fiancé works away for months at a time and I still work night shifts, and still only live in a 3 bed house with 2 of my boys (oldest has moved out) she got really arrogant with me after that. I pointed out they need to stop closing the case, keep them on the register.

But guilt is eating me up, there has been a suggestion they go back to their mother. But that will be a disaster. I have text my brother and offered to help him clean the house. Again, but I am
Pissed off with him, and it's annoying me that he keeps having passes because he's a male single parent! He works school hours and earns good money, he's not skint.

What would you do?

So you would compromise the well being of a non-NT child by making them share a room when they really need their own space? You would deprive your children of things like (maybe) extra-curriculars, life experiences, the ability to save to support them through further education if they take the route, allow your relationship with them and their cousins to possibly be damaged by the whole experience, compromise your own ability to support yourself so that it impacts your own old age (and maybe puts stress on your kids, if they are inclined to financially aid you)? You would make yourself less available to support your own child with developmental challenges and risk your own mental health, which would make you less capable of meeting the needs of your own children? You would risk putting so much stress on your own relationship that it may end, reducing your income even further, demanding more sacrifice of your children?

It's easy to be idealistic when your not in someone else's shoes. I also wonder if the same would be expected so readily of a man who has a family to support.

Fair enough. Probably she’s made up her mind already. But she did ask what others would do and that is going to attract a variety of responses including ones like mine which are - without a second thought - i’d take the kids.

I definitely wouldn't be so sure that DC whose needs are neglected for a sibling or cousin (or whatever reason) grow up totally sanguine about it.

Or they'll resent the heck out of you and you'll be posting on the estrangement board.

I have two kids with special needs of very different kinds, and more kids without those needs. I make sure to balance it because they are all equally important. One thing I am very aware of is the need to ensure their financial future gets off to the best start possible because their conditions might limit their ability to provide for themselves. This limits what I can do for other people and my parents won't be able to expect much in finance from me in their older age.

I have a severely SEN child so i am well aware of the challenges. Very very well aware.

Maybe it’s my working class background but where i grew up it was not uncommon for kids to be taken in my family members. It sucks for everyone, not desirable, but yes, I would do it.

The OP’s question was what would (i) do and that’s what i would do. I know others wouldn’t. Maybe the OP won’t. But i won’t be told by others that i wouldn’t personally make a choice that i know with utter conviction i would.

From you latest update, it sounds like there are more problems than the state of the house and the kids being left alone. Those kids all sound pretty broken unfortunately.

I think the best thing would be for them to be taken in to professional care (certainly the youngest, middle lad 50/50 - he should be old enough to cope with living with his adult sibling and father, the damage has been done now, but equally he might want to get out of there). The professionals will be better placed to try and turn these youngsters around, they'll have the time, money and space and hopefully the skills to help them.

@KingsHeath53 And i bet it was always the women doing the grunt work

OP literally asks "What would you do?" and then appears angry at any poster who says they would do anything other than refuse to play any further role.

OP has the right to make their own decisions but if she just wanted to vent then asking WWYD was unreasonable. Different people will have different levels of resilience, and different cut-off-points for what level of disadvantage/inconvenience caused to ones own child is a reasonable sacrifice to make in exchange for the actual safety of ones niece. Not everyone is going to give the same answer and there isn't a single correct answer, but people are not being wrong or unreasonable to state that what they would do is something more than OP feels able to do.

If your kids are young, you may feel differently when they are much older. It's also important to teach your kinds boundaries and that their needs matter. I grew up always being expected to make sacrifices and shelve my own needs for the good of others. My mother was a champion at being a hero at our expense. Thank goodness I learned to overcome that or I'd have probably been in an institution with severe burnout by now.

Argh those poor kids. You sound so caring and supportive, I don't think you can agree to caring for children at the expense of your own but that doesn't mean you can't be involved in their lives (I don't think?).

Totally off topic and in the interests of exploring this as i obviously don’t want to mess up my kids, how much self sacrifice is an ok level to teach your kids to do?

I was raised to give everything to family. Shirt off your back, money, time, kidneys, everything. I would lay down my life for my siblings if they needed it. I always thought that was quite a noble way of being? But equally i don’t want to teach them to be doormats.

yep.

My DM fostered a niece following SS pressure. As a child of the fostering family it certainly had a major detrimental impact on myself and my actual siblings. There was no support from SS or additional money to help with beds,clothing,shoes, food etc etc We all suffered as a result of the change to family dynamics and dealing with the long term results of that child's trauma virtually on our own. Based on my lived experience I don't feel OP is being unreasonable at all putting her family's wellbeing and mental health first. There are other more appropriate ways for her brothers children to be supported & cared for.

It's hard to quantify. It is good to learn that sometimes we make sacrifices to help others and that other people need our support. There has to be a limit though or you teach people to have no boundaries, potentially be used by others and not have their own needs met.

I mean, I would give a kidney to one of my children. I wouldn't give my kidney to a sibling because that puts my health at risk (and the surgery has its own risks) and my priority is being there for my children. It would be hard to say no, but they come first for me.

I'm actually a very generous person (have had to learn not to be too generous the hard way) and very conscious of helping people. I've done foster care. I won't say what occupation I'm in but I'm aware of the harsh realities that can come with complex family issues. The most important question to me in OP's situation is not do I want to do it but can I do it? That would mean I have to weigh up the impacts on everyone and the long term. Sometimes that means we have to say we can't do x, but we can help by doing y and z.

This is just my opinion btw. Take it or leave it.

Where the issues are going to come into play for me is when my parents are a bit older. I know I'm going to have to be very careful how much I give as I have a more than full plate already.

I think some posters must have missed the update about the OP and her partner both needing to work in order to afford their home. All this emotive stuff about lying on your deathbed regretting the time you spent on your career is missing the point.

You might as well suggest that the OP brings up four kids (who don’t all get on) in a B&B, while waiting, possibly for years, to be allocated a council house big enough to meet their needs. That would be the calm and stable environment that everyone needs - not.

It sounds like you can practically manage taking them on under your circumstances.

Don't feel bad about it, your brother should have the guilt not you, and ss shouldn't pressure you to take on children you can't look after

@Betsybetty

How unpleasant, mawkish and sanctimonious

You can't do this. It's not fair on anyone. And as a NICU nurse, you are also badly needed in your job. And it's ok not want to sacrifice a job you love and have worked hard for. Because your brother is a feckless idiot. And as you say. Nursing is not really a job where you can just take time off as you need it.

Also, I know most people would say that entering the care system is terrible. But that really isn’t always the case. There are amazing carers who could offer a stable home…. not every carer is great of course, but many are.

There's two questions here really.

1. do you want to take the kids? 2 ) can you take the kids?

It's fine for the first to be yes even though the second is a no. I'd want to but honestly I wouldn't cope with the kids or be able to support them emotionally as they deserve. As a night shift worker you're in a really tough spot to start with.
Social services are just desperately seeking a solution that doesn't involve care. It's not personal, ignore any tutting they may do.

@KingsHeath53 You sound like a lovely caring person with a generous heart. I just want to tell you,in case you need to hear it, that your needs are important and matter. We're carers but we're also human beings with dreams and needs. We matter too. :-)

Some of these replies are wild.
Op your own children and home are your priority. Social services will only remove the children under extreme circumstances and these kids are likely to be traumatised and need a lot of therapeutic care. This can happen in foster care, it cannot happen in your home due to your limited capacity.
All of these replies hand wringing and insistent that children should be taken by you hsve no idea in terms of what these children need and how inappropriate emotionally and financially this would be

@KingsHeath53

Maybe it’s my working class background but where i grew up it was not uncommon for kids to be taken in my family members. It sucks for everyone, not desirable, but yes, I would do it.

I bet this massively put the burden on the females in the family to adapt in order to provide additional caring responsibilities, not the men.

Not all lessons about self sacrifice are healthy ones.

I agree with this - I think you sound really kind Kings and perhaps have been taught that (especially as a woman) anything other than total self sacrifice is selfish and therefore bad. But that way of thinking can be damaging and harmful, so is something to challenge in yourself to teach your kids that sometimes it's ok to put yourself first for your own wellbeing.