AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

If anyone had asked me, I’d have said I was pro-choice. But from the look of Twitter, it seems that if you don’t allow abortion up to full term for any reason, you’re forced-birther scum.

This absolutely was a criminal act, and I’m pleased it’s treated as such- but I want this clearly
desperate woman to be treated with compassion.

This is utterly horrific.

What do we have in place to prevent this happening again?

Could she have had a GA c-section, counselling, full mental health support? The possibility of reunification?

What happens when a full term woman doesn’t want her baby any more?

She was essentially inducing a pre-term labour.

The abortion pill by post is actually two pills (Mifepristone and misoprostol).
Mifepristone is used in a regimen together with misoprostol to end a pregnancy that is less than 70 days in duration. It works by stopping the supply of hormones that maintains the interior of the uterus. Without these hormones, the uterus cannot support the pregnancy and the contents of the uterus are expelled.

I imagine that she was in a lot of pain after taking the misoprostol, and this is how she ended in hospital and they found out she’d taken the pills.

Talk of poison etc is ridiculous. I don’t condone the decision but then I can’t imagine being in a situation where I’m desperate enough to induce a pre term labour at home. Prosecution isn’t the answer her and definitely not in the interests of women’s reproductive rights.

I think the issue is that she was reportedly 7 months pregnant. I think if she was say 12 weeks gone, they wouldn't be taking the action that they are.

Of course I'm not saying it's right in sending her to jail, she's been through a horrific experience and counselling would probably be more apt. But I think that the pills are intended for foetuses 10 weeks and under for a reason. Above that time limit, there are other methods to carry out abortion which will be less painful to the baby at its stage of development.

Of course, her options would have been restricted due to less services being available due to lockdown.

Its a terribly tragic situation all round.

@Suprima I wonder all this too, and what would her GP have done if she had called them and said she was desperate. I thought GPs would at least speak to you on the phone during lockdown.

Personally I find the concept of abortion quite difficult, particularly over 20 weeks.

However, I believe in a woman’s right to choose and that abortion should be available as early as possible and as late as necessary.

I do not believe any woman chooses a late term abortion and all it entails without a lot of thought and consideration. As long as it is done in consultation with appropriate medical professionals it should be an option.

In this case there are two troubling aspect, the first is the methodology and whether this would have caused the baby undue and prolonged suffering in comparison to other late term methods. Secondly we don’t know the mental health of the woman - if she was suicidal the choice she may have been facing was between leaving 4 children motherless vs the loss of the baby.

I can understand why she is being prosecuted as it appears she broke the law but would expect compassion in the sentencing.

How did this come to light?

Had I been her I wouldn't have told. anyone

A 34 week FOETUS. Not a baby.

It's not a person. It was not born, it did not, (in a legal sense) die. It did not experience anything, in any meaningful sense.

A foetus and a baby are not the same thing.

Why on earth has this got to court? Do we not care about the four living children whose mum is being threatened with prison? What happens to them if she is sent to prison?

I hate the thought that this woman was in such a desperate situation in lockdown, four kids and an unplanned pregnancy, likely poor mental health, no school so no chance of even a short break to think, no access to counseling services.

She was desperate enough to lie to get abortion pills and that led to all of this! Police seizing her electronics to build a case against her, inexplicably deciding to go ahead with prosecution. Has this court case been hanging over the family since lockdown? What's the public interest in punishing this? What has the impact been on her living children, even before sentencing?

If it just induced pre term labour wouldn't a 34 week baby have likely survived and been born?

I imagine that she was in a lot of pain after taking the misoprostol, and this is how she ended in hospital and they found out she’d taken the pills.

Thank you @ColonelBrandonsPiano - that sounds a reasonable supposition.

She already has four children. I'm sure that she didn't take the decision to terminate this one lightly, She must have been beyond desperate.

Vile. Absolutely no reason to send her to jail. The impact on.her existing DC!

I disagree I’m afraid. She was 7 months pregnant. She’d apparently researched ways to end a pregnancy. If the baby had been delivered then it would almost certainly have survived.

I support abortion up to the time limit, or to save the mother’s life, but being allowed to commit child destruction and get away with it is not ok.

Arguing for abortion up to delivery is a) abhorrent and b) a sure fire way to rile up the anti choice brigade and get them campaigning to reduce the term limit.

Sometimes i think people dont actually realise what an abortion actually is.
Abortion pills are really cruel at that stage of pregnancy. There is a reason a women is given an injection to stop the heart at late term abortions.
I don't think she should go to prison but counselling as she comes to terms with what she did.

Thanks for the thread, OP. I would not have heard about this otherwise.

Personally, I think it's right that she was prosecuted, given the law is as it is. However, I hope the court is lenient when it comes to sentencing (imminently?) as she should not have been in this position. Leaving aside MH, personal circs etc, the role of lockdown in this situation can't be underestimated imo. I do not think this was a woman with choices. I'll be interested to know more once the case has been heard, though.

One thing is clear, and that is that the law needs a total overhaul, and perhaps this case will be the catalyst for that to happen.

Look I am pro abortion but legally what she did was wrong. It was not classed as a fetus. In law, a baby over 28 weeks is a child. That was part of how the Abortion Act 1967 got through at all. And it's been the law since that time.

No, you're wrong, it is classed as a foetus as that is what it is. It is not classed as a child. You are not a legal person until birth.

It's not a person. It was not born, it did not, (in a legal sense) die. It did not experience anything, in any meaningful sense.

That's rather heartless. Of course it experienced pain. Many pregnant women feel their foetus to be a person, and that it experiences things. At 6 months my daughter would start rolling around and kicking whenever she heard my sister laugh. I knew it made her happy.

So she took the pills, that are only supposed to be used up to 10 weeks? Don’t tell me that after 4 previous pregnancy’s she didn’t know she was further along. There’s more to this than what’s written bout it imo

It's a medical issue insofar as she could have harmed herself by using a method of termination that may not have been fully successful and so put herself at risk of infection. But that's it.

If it's the case I've read about, she obtained by post, pills to end an early pregnancy (earlier than 10 weeks).

She terminated a 28 week foetus.

Exercising compassion and reason in sentencing isn't "normalizing" anything and this was not infanticide. Infanticide only occurs after the birth.

And @WhatNoRaisins wasn't saying what you're implying she said.

I hope you tell that to all your friends who grieve the loss of their babies through miscarriage or still birth.

That it wasn't a baby and it didn't die.

I view a 34 week old fetus as a baby.

I had a baby at this age he was definitely a baby.

In your view does a fetus only become a baby as it emerges from your vagina?

Court is back.

Judge says “unusually” the court has received a letter from various medial bodies, including presidents of RCOG and RC of midwives.

Describing them as “eminent medical professionals”, he says they urge a non-custodial sentence.

He says the letter is “inappropriate.”

He says it is up to parliament to change the law, and those who object to the law to lobby parliament, but judges must apply the law as it stands.

This does not bode well...

@notokaywiththetropes both are true. In criminal law, the 1929 Act classes a baby over 28 weeks as a child. You say fetus and it's true that a legal personhood is only given after birth, but the 1929 Act remains. And it can still be used against women. That was the alternative charge in this case.

I agree a foetus and a baby are different - but when the foetus is 34 weeks, it's really just a technical difference, surely?

Babies can feel pain in the womb from 22 weeks onwards so surely it would have experienced a horrible death.... And even though it was still in the womb, it is a death - babies who are born at that gestation are considered to be stillborn and given a death certificate etc.

There's lots about this case which is disturbing, traumatic and sad but I think that also includes what the "foetus" would have experienced.

I am probably slightly biased as my babies were born at 32 weeks. To me, an unborn 34-week foetus is absolutely a baby. And it's horrific to think about what that little one went through.

**I'm pro-choice and not anti-abortion.

Haven’t read the full thread so apologies if it’s been covered. How did she come to the attention of authorities? Did she go and get medical treatment during the termination/passing the foetus and that’s when they found out it was further along than thought?