AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

Absolutely everything @Mary0nTheHandlebars said.
This woman has almost been handed a sainthood on here, so many excuses for what she has done.
I feel sorry for her existing children, her family and the baby that never got it's chance.

I wonder if all the people who agree with her going to prison are also the same people who have a hatred for big families/ benefit bash/ harp on about the planet/ call parents irresponsible for not saving £££ before having a baby/ sulk about council housing while they pay for a mortgage/ laugh at those stories where families are living in a mould ridden house because “it’s what they deserve”/ call the 2 year funding unfair/ intolerant of children making noises in public/ don’t give a stuff about the baby once it’s born.

All these things are the attitudes of SO MANY people and there are so many more. And I would bet any money that people who have been vicious about this woman agree with at least one of the above.

Not really relevant, as this woman's pregnancy was diagnosed in December and she took the pills the following May.

I think this thread has become a debate about whether it's morally ok to abort after 24 weeks. Most people will have a view one way or another on that, but actually the OP was originally about her going to prison.

I don't think in any circumstance it's reasonable for her to serve a custodial sentence for this. Prison's primary aim is to protect the public from those who can harm others. She just doesn't fall into this category. If it's retribution people want, then I think it's safe to say she has suffered enough. Rehabilitation just doesn't happen in prison. She needs proper access to proper mental health services, and the real losers in all of this are her children. Her being sent to prison benefits absolutely no one.

Great post @Mary0nTheHandlebars .

Yes Pro life extremists who argue the worst case scenarios to justify what to most people are inhumane acts on infants, are the ones putting early abortions for woman who just want one most at risk.

A shame in many ways that she didn't plead guilty much earlier - apparently the judge could have suspended the sentence if she had

Nope, I don’t agree with any of those things.

And people haven’t been vicious towards her. We just don’t think she’s a victim.

The court heard between February and May 2020 she had searched "how to hide a pregnancy bump", "how to have an abortion without going to the doctor" and "how to lose a baby at six months".

guilty - every day of the week.

This.

I don’t think she should go to prison because her children shouldn’t be punished. I don’t know what sort of mental state she was in so can’t comment on whether she was acting rationally.

However, a 28 week old foetus would very likely survive. Is killing a baby in the uterus ok but killing one once it has been born not? Why not just give the baby up for adoption?

And someone up thread said we should have the right to terminate at any stage. I’m sorry about what happened to you but that doesn’t give you the right to say that a viable baby should be killed or it’s gestation ended early at the detriment of its health.

Huh? A corpse has greater rights than a woman with a right to life, liberty, education, etc etc?

The corpse has the right to all those things too. Shame he now can't practically exercise those rights.

What nonsense. By that single paragraph you demonstrate how little you understand about this, @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia

As a general comment, this is always going to be unfair on women. A man and woman have sex. The woman gets pregnant. She has to Google how to hide a pregnancy, how to have a miscarriage whilst the man involves just gets on with his day. This woman was clearly desperate and didn’t know what to do.

Thank you. This makes clear that lockdown was a red herring. The abortion took place on 9th May - 7 weeks after the start of lockdown. She was 32-34 weeks at that point, so was already over the 24 week limit when lockdown started.

This differs from Savita's case only in the timing of the denied termination.

And Savita dying as opposed to being left disabled or ill. But making a doctor choose between risk of prosecution and putting a woman at risk of long-term medical consequences is not OK to the woman or the doctor, which is the other reason why I don't like time limits.

@Labtastic I don't know. Anyone who could inflict that kind of suffering on a baby probably needs psychiatric evaluation, which hopefully is happening.

This is just awful, awful, awful. What on earth will be served by this? It's mad and vile and misogynistic.

Best post on this thread. Hear hear.

How, precisely?

Even if I'm wrong on that, a pregnant woman in the UK has less right to bodily autonomy than a corpse. I am correct on that. Other rights are actually irrelevant because abortion is about the right to bodily autonomy, not right to liberty etc.

No, abortion to save a woman's life or health was allowed before 1967.

Did the woman take her children with her when she first left her husband, or did they stay at the family home with him?

Well that's Ireland. If it had happened in the UK she could have had the termination that she had begged them for

Good I’m glad. I don’t agree with any of those views either but a lot of people do. I have 4 children and there are a lot of people who hate big families for example. Some of those same people would also disagree with my decision to have an abortion when I was 8 weeks 🤷🏼‍♀️ Can’t please everyone.
I know I was much further behind than this lady, but there definitely are some hypocrites in this world.

But she didn't have to do all that. She could have had a legal abortion at any time up to 24 weeks, there was nothing to stop her. She knew about her pregnancy three months before lockdown, and terminations were still happening once lockdown started.

Well... she only needs a half decent lawyer here.
I do not think people should have abortion pills or other means of abortion without a proper medical examination to assess them, if they are pregnant, of sound mind and how far along.
I think it is the system what failed here.

This sounds horrendous
28 weeks and assuming a tablet would cause a termination?
It’s not like taking a morning after pill.

How on Earth did the woman expect the foetus to pass at that advanced state?
It’s an absolute tragedy that she didn’t seek help earlier, and prison is not the right place for someone who takes abortion meds.

Was the woman educated as to what would happen?
Surely the medicine provider was equally at fault?

The whole episode sounds very distressing.
Prison is not appropriate, however.